Is free will possible in a deterministic universe?

[Seattle]

Self determination leads to self responsibility.

I am advocating for self responibility.
The fatalist is abrogating that responsibility to "other" than self.
Which one do you go with?

I'm "going with" reality. I'm not a "fatalist". Advocating for self-responsibility is fine. It's reality. We don't need this long thread for that.

Just because the free will that we have is not as absolute as some might think, we still have enough free will to be responsible for our actions. There isn't some pre-ordained grand plan. The determinism being spoken over is just to the degree that with perfect knowledge much/all could be predicted. I can't even say that for sure and I don't think anyone can because they don't know every mechanism for how things work in our brain. We know it's all electrical and chemical connections/reactions though.

In our day to day lives most/much of it is directed by free will. It's not all or nothing. Two things can be true at once even if it causes cognitive dissonance for some.

 

[Seattle]

interestingly:
Liquid Oxygen has a boiling point of -182.96 C
Liquid Hydrogen has a boiling point of -252 C

Yet liquid H2O has a boiling point of +100 C

Interestingly, although Quantum Quack is quite mad, he can function outside the restraints of a straight jacket.

 

[DaveC426913]

In our day to day lives most/much of it is directed by free will. It's not all or nothing. Two things can be true at once even if it causes cognitive dissonance for some.

This is simply an assertion though.
It doesn't help to refute the core notion that free will is incompatible with a deterministic universe.

 

[Quantum Quack]

QQ - just wondering, how does this belief of yours affect your daily life? If you were to change your thinking on it, would your life be affected either way?

How I am effected is actually not on topic. You may get the gist from the following.

I believe clearly understanding the reality of self responsibility is essential for the human race to evolve into a more "religion" free, mature race...

That the people I know who are suffering various compulsive disorders like COD, NPD, Parnoid Schizophrenia, can clearly understand why those compulsions are manifesting. That the mental health professionals can clearly offer therapies that can reinforce the patients ability to self determine thus improving their self esteem and societal function accordingly.
That their ability to self determine which has been severely compromised leading to personal dysfunction, can be with appropriate therapies, improved upon with out the extensive use of psycho-topic drugs.

 

[wegs]

How I am effected is actually not on topic. You may get the gist from the following.

I believe clearly understanding the reality of self responsibility is essential for the human race to evolve into a more "religion" free, mature race...

That the people I know who are suffering various compulsive disorders like COD, NPD, Parnoid Schizophrenia, can clearly understand why those compulsions are manifesting. That the mental health professionals can clearly offer therapies that can reinforce the patients ability to self determine thus improving their self esteem accordingly.
That their ability to self determine has been severely compromised leading to personal dysfunction, can be with appropriate therapies, improved upon.

Okay, so free will = ''self responsibility/determination?''

 

[Quantum Quack]

Okay, so free will = ''self responsibility/determination?''

if that wording helps you ... sure....

 

[Quantum Quack]

Okay, so free will = ''self responsibility/determination?''

btw see the edited #284

 

[Seattle]

This is simply an assertion though.
It doesn't help to refute the core notion that free will is incompatible with a deterministic universe.

Unless you believe in a Grand Plan (God) you're not going to have a completely "deterministic Universe" so if you have already stipulated that, game over.

The kind of determinism I speak of isn't that of the Grand Plan. It's just that with perfect information you can (probably) predict each subsequent action. It doesn't mean that there is no free will.

You can choose to either turn left or right. You might turn right and argue that even though you turned right, you really didn't have an choice although you thought that you did.

But what happens if I take you out of the equation altogether. As you are turning right, I go over to you and force you to turn left. Surely your life is changed now.

If you argue that I didn't have free will either and I was compelled to make you go left then you are arguing for God and the Grand Plan because there is nothing in nature that is making sure that end game outcomes are adhered to.

 

[wegs]

if that wording helps you ... sure....

It only helps me in terms of knowing what is being meant by the various terms, here. (at least how they're being applied for the sake of this thread)

So, thanks.

 

[Quantum Quack]

The kind of determinism I speak of isn't that of the Grand Plan. It's just that with perfect information you can (probably) predict each subsequent action. It doesn't mean that there is no free will.

and what is often overlooked in this hypothetical is:

1. that it is hypothetical
2. that infinite knowledge of the human being doing the deciding is also needed.

 

[DaveC426913]

...there is nothing in nature that is making sure that end game outcomes are adhered to.

You've got it backwards.

There is nothing to nature stopping every atom from following the most basic of physics - response to gravity, EM or one of the other forces.

But what happens if I take you out of the equation altogether. As you are turning right, I go over to you and force you to turn left. Surely your life is changed now.

Changed? From what?



I didn't have choice in that scenario, and neither did you. You came over to me because the atoms in your brain were configured that way from previous atoms. Those previous atoms are there because the atoms before them were knocked about by atoms previous to them.

Atoms in your brain don't just happen to go left instead of right. Every atom's current state is a direct cause-effect product of the atoms (and photons) it interacted with previously. Every atom - since the dawn of time.

Unless you believe in a Grand Plan (God) you're not going to have a completely "deterministic Universe"

Wait. Is it possible you're misunderstanding what we mean by a deterministic universe?

It doesn't mean things are preordained, if that's what you're thinking.

It means all interactions have a 1:1 cause-effect relationship. If two atoms collide, they rebound with an outcome completely determined by hard laws of physics. They don't have a velocity of "ish" or a direction of "ish".

The next encounters, with other atoms, likewise have an outcome completely determined by its interactions as well. Every atom can only do exactly what the laws of physics make it do. This happens as a chain reaction from the dawn of time to now.

That is (in a nutshell) what a deterministic universe is.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Interestingly, although Quantum Quack is quite mad, he can function outside the restraints of a straight jacket.

reminded me of this clip:

 

[Quantum Quack]

Atoms in your brain don't just happen to go left instead of right. Every atom's current state is a direct cause-effect product of the atoms (and photons) it interacted with previously. Every atom - since the dawn of time.

so when the atoms tell you to learn something what then?

 

[iceaura]

Show how atoms - even trillions of them - can "choose". I don't mean the end result - I mean show where a bunch of atoms with determined trajectories results in them acting with free will.

A driver approaches a traffic light - - - - -

A moth does not choose to fly toward a light. The light interacts with photo sensors on its wings, and one wing beats faster than the other, causing it to turn toward the light.

? That's not how it works.

There are plenty of examples in nature of complex behaviors, structures and organization, for which you would have a hard time applying the label 'free will'.

Sure. For one thing, there has to be a will in the first place, for it to have any freedom. So?

It doesn't help to refute the core notion that free will is incompatible with a deterministic universe.

That "core notion" is also simply an assertion, though - and the supernatural assumption it incorporates has not been granted.
- - -

Unless you believe in a Grand Plan (God) you're not going to have a completely "deterministic Universe" so if you have already stipulated that, game over.

So you are what - starting a completely new thread, with different assumptions?
Besides: stipulating to that - which was the basis of this entire thread and the couple before - has not come close to ending the game.

It's just that with perfect information you can (probably) predict each subsequent action.

That's not the case.

Every atom's current state is a direct cause-effect product of the atoms (and photons) it interacted with previously. Every atom - since the dawn of time.

You are assuming quantum effects are causally deterministic - I agree.
You are omitting the larger scale patterns that cause the patterns of behavior that emerge from the substrate of configurations - they are what is centrally and definitively causal at the pattern level, not the substrate atoms or configurations. Substrates do not usually cause the patterns emergent in or on them. This is key to evaluating the degrees of freedom possessed by the entity making a decision - such an evaluation cannot restrict itself to the patterns of quarks we name "atoms" and be accurate.

 

[DaveC426913]

so when the atoms tell you to learn something what then?

All thinking is, in principle, reducible to simply cause-effect of atoms and photons doing what they must do according to the laws of physics.

That includes chemical emotions induced by the sight and sound of your sad wife who wants a new stove but can't have one because you're stuck in a dead-end job - and it includes the chemical emotions produced by a lack of stimulus from an unfulfilled life that trigger other parts of the brain to take complex actions like pick up an book, knowing that deferred gratification of putting more stuff into your brain from the book will increase your endorphins.

 

[DaveC426913]

That "core notion" is also simply an assertion, though - and the supernatural assumption it incorporates has not been granted.

What supernatural assumption?

 

[Quantum Quack]

All thinking is, in principle, reducible to simply cause-effect of atoms and photons doing what they must do according to the laws of physics.

including how to make use of what we learn about physics to self determine what we can do with those physics yes?

 

[Seattle]

You've got it backwards.

There is nothing to nature stopping every atom from following the most basic of physics - response to gravity, EM or one of the other forces.


Changed? From what?



I didn't have choice in that scenario, and neither did you. You came over to me because the atoms in your brain were configured that way from previous atoms. Those previous atoms are there because the atoms before them were knocked about by atoms previous to them.

Atoms in your brain don't just happen to go left instead of right. Every atom's current state is a direct cause-effect product of the atoms (and photons) it interacted with previously. Every atom - since the dawn of time.



Wait. Is it possible you're misunderstanding what we mean by a deterministic universe?

It doesn't mean things are preordained, if that's what you're thinking.

It means all interactions have a 1:1 cause-effect relationship. If two atoms collide, they rebound with an outcome completely determined by hard laws of physics. They don't have a velocity of "ish" or a direction of "ish".

The next encounters, with other atoms, likewise have an outcome completely determined by its interactions as well. Every atom can only do exactly what the laws of physics make it do. This happens as a chain reaction from the dawn of time to now.

That is (in a nutshell) what a deterministic universe is.

Well, that is true enough unless we get into quantum physics, which of course we should given the environment. In that case, the current view is no, that's not true. There is a view that you're right and we simply have no possible way of knowing those actions but the majority (I would say) view is that, no, it really is probabilistic at its very core.

Getting beyond that though, you are speaking of atoms as billiard balls. You're simplifying of course, I get that but I think one would have to know more about how the consciousness of our brain works to know if every action can be predicted prior to a thought occurring which changes future possible actions. This can still be a question without making it an effect without a cause.

Getting back to possible quantum fluctuations it may be possible to get effects without predictable causes. You'll have to solve the double slit puzzle as well as address quantum fluctuations.

 

[DaveC426913]

A driver approaches a traffic light - - - - -

His brain - being an electro-chemical structure receives photons as input. The neurons that receive input and route it to various other structure in the brain (as they must). Other structures compare the input to stored inputs, such as what was previously received and stored in driving school.
Chemicals in other structures that recall "good" things from "bad" things from memory send a positive signal to the higher functions, which route signals to the motor cortex.

In other circumstances, the storage that knows "I'm late" overrides the "we should stop at stoplights", and the driver doesn't stop.

But, whichever scenario actually occurred, every step was mediated by atoms and photons that have no wiggle room in how they act. There was no actual free will there, there was a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes that we don't have access to about our own minds - that we interpret as free will.

Obviously this is an over-simplified description, but the fact remains nowhere in there does any atom - or any consequence of any atom - get to go left instead of right.

? That's not how it works.

Yes, it is.

 

[iceaura]

What supernatural assumption?

You can copy/paste from previous posting at least as easily as I can, if your amnesia is that bad.

All thinking is, in principle, reducible to simply cause-effect of atoms and photons doing what they must do according to the laws of physics.

And the atoms are reducible to quarks and so forth, and they are reducible to various equations that describe nobody knows what. Doesn't help - the larger patterns are still causal. As you carelessly posted, atoms (patterns of quark interactions) are causal - by the same logic, dreams (patterns of patterns of patterns of atom interactions) are causal.
"Cause" only makes sense at the appropriate logical level.