Is Buddhism a religion?

[Pineal]

This is now a home for one issue that came up in my Zen koan thread.

So...

Is Buddhism a religion?
Must a religion be theistic? (note: some of Buddhism is clearly theistic, some is ambiguous, some is non-theistic)
Please include a definition of religion that you work with and connect this to your position.

 

[spidergoat]

Yes and no. It's the religion of no religion. Religions don't have to be theistic.

 

[skaught]

I've always viewed it as more of a philosophy than a religion. Buddhism seems more concerned with how to conduct oneself in life than with gods and sin and afterlife etc.

 

[wynn]

From the mainstream sociological and culturological perspective, it is a religion.
From that perspective, a religion needn't be theistic to be considered a religion.

 

[Yazata]

Is Buddhism a religion?

As a short answer, I'd say yes.

For a longer answer...

One problem that we face is that our concept of 'religion', like our concept of 'philosophy', evolved in a Western context. They might not apply with precision to ideas from different cultures. In India, philosophy, psychology and religion were never distinguished as clearly as they are in modern Europe. (Chinese Confucianism is another problem case.)

So right out of the gate, Buddhism can look like a philosophy, a psychology, or like a religion, depending on what variety or aspect of Buddhism we happen to be looking at. (It's like that ancient parable of the blind men and the elephant.)

Early Buddhism, with its emphasis on dukkha, its arising and subsiding, and on the practice leading to the end of dukkha, perhaps most resembles Western psychology. To the extent that it teaches a metaphysics (anicca, anatta etc.) it's more like a philosophy. And to the extent that it offers a path to salvation, it was clearly religious from the very first.

Buddhism later broadened out from being primarily an ethical discipline and a meditation practice for a small core of forest renunciates, and evolved into something more closely resembling what we think of as popular religion -- with relics, pilgrimmage sites, temples, images, offerings, and eventually a whole pantheon of cosmic Buddhas and Boddhisattvas aiding Buddhists with supernatural grace and to whom many Buddhists devoutly pray.

 

[cosmictraveler]

Major Religions of the World

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...tui4BA&usg=AFQjCNGogbXwpSZhXdAa6dhfcAWudzcrBw

So by most definitions it is.

 

[Pineal]

I've take a couple of exchanges from the Zen Koan thread, focusing on asserting by Fraggle Rocker

My wife is a lifelong atheist and more recently a Buddhist. She would be as angry as a Buddhist can be (and I don't know what their limit is) if she heard you calling Buddhism a "religion." It has no requirement to believe in gods or any supernatural phenomena.

Signal - In what tradition of Buddhism is your wife?

Tibetan. She also practices Vipassana meditation, which is a Tibetan school.

Originally Posted by Pineal
I was pointing out that many people in the West shift religion to Buddhism to support the idea that it is a religion, that they see it as being in the same category as the religion they are leaving behind.

”

FR - The number of atheists is growing in the West--much more quickly in many countries than in the USA. Many Christians in these countries come close to the atheist-Jew model I described above. To them, their religion is more of a comfortable community than a supernaturalist philosophy

Tibetan Buddhism is, compared to other Buddhisms, a supernaturalist religion. We have clear reincarnation, not in an anatma form. When the lamas die, they are specifically sought out in children - who are tested to make sure they are the same reincarnated souls. The lamas are also much closer to gurus than Buddhist masters from other traditions.

It is considered dangerous for non-initiated to engage in the various practices including meditation.

Some of this softened when it came into the West, but still most of the masters were tibetan and part of that lineage.

There are also deities, rituals, consecrations, etc.

If Fraggle's wife is not a supernaturalist, I wonder if she can really be a Buddhist.

Is someone who does Yoga, Hindu?

Now I assume she has taken on more of the Tibetan philosophy to consider herself part of that tradition, but how much can one pick and choose out of a, yes I would call it a religion, religion before one is considered a member.

The leaders in the religion are considered to be and consider themselves reincarnated souls. If this belief, which really is rather core to TB is not accepted, this means that one has decided that the authority of the leaders is good in one area - meditation - but not in other areas. This is, of course, easily philosophically defensible. People can be experts at one thing and deluded about something else.

However I do question the idea that she is a Tibetan Buddhist.

(this is not meant to be a personal issue about a specific person, but I think this 'case' highlights some key issues)

Can we not say that she has a practice taken from Tibetan Buddhism?

Of all the Buddhisms, Tibetan is most clearly a religion, and is certainly a supernaturalist tradition.

 

[arauca]

I've always viewed it as more of a philosophy than a religion. Buddhism seems more concerned with how to conduct oneself in life than with gods and sin and afterlife etc.

There are many temples in China and the temples are filled with worshipers who burn candles en front of Buddha Statue , As far I can see is no different worshiping then Catholics.

 

[Aqueous Id]

If that is all you know about Buddhism and Catholicism, then you may be trainable after all.

Aren't you at all interested in what other people believe and why?

 

[Aqueous Id]

This is now a home for one issue that came up in my Zen koan thread.

So...

Is Buddhism a religion?
Must a religion be theistic? (note: some of Buddhism is clearly theistic, some is ambiguous, some is non-theistic)
Please include a definition of religion that you work with and connect this to your position.

Since Buddhism is conventionally considered a world religion, I would immediately say yes. It's a convention to use this word. Christianity is considered a religion, but today more and more I encounter Christians who deny having "a religion" as if that is just a label that under-represents what they actually believe.

If I were God (another thread) I would make every person who believed in Me to have to study all the world religions. I would not tolerate intolerance.

Along the way, when they got to the course in Buddhism, they would expand their sense of self, eternity, and the nature of the subliminal (or supramundane).

One of the very important religious principles that Buddhism teaches is that we are all born into the tendency to err, and only through self-discipline can we escape this. For an atheist who practices meditation, the odds of achieving success are greatly increased if the mind is rid of all contamination that the cardinal sins introduce as disturbances.

In many ways, I consider Buddhism to be superior to many of the Western religions, because of the focus on self-improvment, not out of guilt or shame, or violation of some archaic rule handed down from legend, but because correcting yourself is right.

 

[Yazata]

There are many temples in China and the temples are filled with worshipers who burn candles en front of Buddha Statue , As far I can see is no different worshiping then Catholics.

I think that the underlying philosophy is very different.

But yeah, it's true. East Asian Mahayana did evolve forms of popular religiosity and temple ceremonial that really are reminiscent of Catholicism. In the 16'th century early European visitors were struck by that.

There probably isn't a whole lot of difference between a Buddhist praying to Amida or one of the other cosmic Buddhas and Boddhisattvas, and a Catholic praying to Jesus, Mary or the Saints. The outward church/temple ceremonial is similar, and more importantly, the inner attitude and feeling are probably pretty similar too.

 

[Search & Destroy]

You guys in the West will think Buddhism is more of a way of life, philosophy and such. I bet a lot of this is because of the popularity of Zen.

Over in the East, Buddhism is treated much more like a religion. In China it is all about idol worship, and in Thailand and around it is similarly seen as more of a religion.

There are so many branches that it is what you make of it. For me Buddhism is mostly about living the right way, meditating & being compassionate. Meditation is the most important aspect, as once you do enough of it, you can't stop it anymore - that's when Buddhism has its most powerful influences on the psyche.

 

[Pineal]

You guys in the West will think Buddhism is more of a way of life, philosophy and such. I bet a lot of this is because of the popularity of Zen.

Over in the East, Buddhism is treated much more like a religion. In China it is all about idol worship, and in Thailand and around it is similarly seen as more of a religion.

There are so many branches that it is what you make of it. For me Buddhism is mostly about living the right way, meditating & being compassionate. Meditation is the most important aspect, as once you do enough of it, you can't stop it anymore - that's when Buddhism has its most powerful influences on the psyche.

If someone does Yoga, are they Hindu? What is the minimum they would have to add, if your answer is no, so that you would think they were Hindu?

 

[Pineal]

If I were God (another thread) I would make every person who believed in Me to have to study all the world religions. I would not tolerate intolerance.

Satanism too? Are their no religious practices we can be intolerant about, God?

Along the way, when they got to the course in Buddhism, they would expand their sense of self, eternity, and the nature of the subliminal (or supramundane).

Or feel bored and antsy. Or feel like the goal sounded creepy, this selfless nirvana.

One of the very important religious principles that Buddhism teaches is that we are all born into the tendency to err, and only through self-discipline can we escape this. For an atheist who practices meditation, the odds of achieving success are greatly increased if the mind is rid of all contamination that the cardinal sins introduce as disturbances.

Sins?

In many ways, I consider Buddhism to be superior to many of the Western religions, because of the focus on self-improvment, not out of guilt or shame, or violation of some archaic rule handed down from legend, but because correcting yourself is right.

So you are less tolerant of Western religions who you are now judging?

 

[spidergoat]

There are many temples in China and the temples are filled with worshipers who burn candles en front of Buddha Statue , As far I can see is no different worshiping then Catholics.

True. Bunch of degenerates.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

I've take a couple of exchanges from the Zen Koan thread, focusing on asserting by Fraggle Rocker. Tibetan Buddhism is, compared to other Buddhisms, a supernaturalist religion. If Fraggle's wife is not a supernaturalist, I wonder if she can really be a Buddhist.

I don't think she cares what anyone calls her. She's not doing this to belong to a group or to identify with one. She never says "I'm a Buddhist." She just says that she's studying the teachings of the Buddha.

We have clear reincarnation, not in an anatma form.

She has studied Jungian psychology so she can clearly identify metaphors and archetypes when she sees them. She sees the cultural value in these things, and it does not require them to be literally true.

It is considered dangerous for non-initiated to engage in the various practices including meditation.

Hogwash.

There are also deities, rituals, consecrations, etc.

More metaphors, more archetypes.

Now I assume she has taken on more of the Tibetan philosophy to consider herself part of that tradition. . .

She doesn't care whether she is "part of that tradition." She has just found some useful ideas that have helped her achieve a greater level of peace. My wife is not a group-oriented person, I can assure you of that.

. . . . but how much can one pick and choose out of a, yes I would call it a religion, religion before one is considered a member.

As I said, that question is of utterly no importance to her. Well wait, I suppose it is. She would strongly object to anyone regarding her as a member of any religion.

However I do question the idea that she is a Tibetan Buddhist.

I never said she was. Somebody asked which tradition she followed and I said "Tibetan." Not the same thing at all.

Can we not say that she has a practice taken from Tibetan Buddhism?

That's just about the same thing I said. So why are you arguing?

There are many temples in China and the temples are filled with worshipers who burn candles en front of Buddha Statue , As far I can see is no different worshiping then Catholics.

We appear to worship statues of Abraham Lincoln and George Washington, but it's only their memories and their accomplishments that we truly worship.

 

[BlueBaby]

We appear to worship statues of Abraham Lincoln and George Washington, but it's only their memories and their accomplishments that we truly worship.

But they- Lincoln, Washington, etc, were real people. I would never consider placing flowers on my grandmother's grave the same as placing gifts at the feet of a statue of Mary or Buddha or any other such.

Honoring, discussing, studying a real individuals life and accomplishments is not the same as honoring, discussing, and studying some "enlightened" being?
For me, anyway.
BB

 

[spidergoat]

Buddha was a real person.

 

[BlueBaby]

Buddha was a real person.

I thought there have been many real "Buddha". How is that? What makes one a Buddha? And not according to Wiki or the West's deformation and corruption of Buddhism

And why are they offered gifts by their practitioners? again, not according to Wiki or the West's deformation and corruption of Buddhism.

I can take out the woohoo from any practice but then am I still a practitioner?

And how can I be blamed if my corrupt definition of Buddhism doesn't match someone elses corrupted definition?

I can follow Jesus' ethical teachings but if I told someone that would they allow me to call myself an atheist? Without an argument?

 

[spidergoat]

There was a real person who came to be referred to by that name. Others are called that as an honorarium, meaning that they experienced the same transformation in consciousness as he did. In some sense, there are no real boundaries between self and other, so Buddha is all buddhas.

I think the gifts are both a form of respect, as well as a throwback to previous religious forms.

You can indeed take the woo woo out of Buddhism and distill it to it's essence. I think Zen is a form of that. You can also be an atheist or a Buddhist and appreciate Jesus (Rajneesh wrote a good book about that).