Is America (US) ready for a black president?

[TimeTraveler]

iam;1258244]Excuse me?? Your the one who is said your an american and a humanist. I'm not pinning shit on you. A contradiction in terms considering you believe foreigners should accept american culture both good and BAD but americans should pick and choose what they accept about them and their culture?? Can't be two things now can you??? Why do you make such lofty and erroneous claims?? You can't even live up to it yourself?

If you are not an American, what right do you have to judge us? If you are an American, then go ahead, we can discuss the negative aspects of American culture, but I'm not going to debate the negatives of American culture with someone who is not American and who does not know what they are talking about.

It's one thing to be a foreigner, thats not a problem, but if you are a foreigner who comes to another country, you cannot go to that country and then tell all it's citizens who have been there for hundreds of years, that their culture is shit, or that you don't like this or that, yet you aren't going to claim American yourself. That's you playing the role of the culturally superior foreigner, and it pisses people off.

If you'd like to debate the positive and negative aspects of American culture, fine, lets do so, but I doubt you know the positives because you only complain about America in your posts, or complain about American culture, or complain about Americans. You are using a computer invented by Americans, it was American culture that invented the internet, it was American culture that invented Hollywood, and while you might not like most movies, I'm sure there are some movies, books, music, and trends that you do like. Be realistic.

I'm not desperate, I'm just not a pathological liar and denier as yourself. I also don't put on fronts.

You assume I'm lying because you cannot understand how anyone could think what I think. Now, if you were born in America, and your parents were, and your grand parents, and their parents, and so on and so forth then maybe, after enough generations you'd understand my attachment to America.

If anyone thinks i've lost this argument to you, they are stupid. But i wasn't trying to win an argument against you worthless scumbag, it was the point remember?

Now you pre-emptively insult people who disagree with you. Do you really think this raises your intellectual worth? You are damaging your own reputation while losing the arguement. You are attacking yourself.

I don't care if they ban me, i hope they do. What an idiot. This place is not fuking entertaining. You have no fuking common sense. I am laughing at you.

You are so emotional that you don't make any sense, it's as if you have no concept of logic, or rational arguement. You cannot win an arguement with emotional appeals, or insults. You cannot win an arguement by insulting the room by calling the place boring, as if this forum exists only for your entertainment. You can laugh if you want, I don't really care, it's not my motivation to influence you. It's my motivation to learn different perspectives so that I may better understand my own perspective.

Your perspective, does not seem like the typical American perspective. You claim to not like bigots or racists, but then you go and preach this anti-American type stuff, and start with name calling, and act like America exists ONLY to assist immigrants. America exists to sustain its OWN history, culture, founding principles, etc. You ignore the fact that America actually does have a culture, it has good and bad aspects, and we can debate that while debating if America is ready for a black President, but let's debate that from the perspective of Americans. How can we ever have a Black president if we debate it from your perspective? Do you really think, America wants a permanently foreign President, who will change the national language, and change American culture?

People love their culture, and the best you can do, is make minor improvements to it through exchange. The worst thing you can do, is complain all the time, and attack it.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

you are targeting a specific member of this community and isolating him based on his race...as well as cursing at him.

I believe this goes against SF protocol.

I read the post and didn't quite see what you said. Some other posts were maybe a bit heavy on the fucks, pricks, butts and whatever.

If you are not an American, what right do you have to judge us?

Every right.

 

[iam]

I do not hate or love cultures based on where they came from. I'm an American, period. Of course I'm going to be defensive when you say stuff about America that I consider offensive. Yes I will admit that there are bad or negative aspects of American culture, and I never said all American cultures are equal, but if you are to become an American citizen, you cannot come here with this attitude that you are culturally superior.


If you hate being American so bad, and if you clearly are not American, then what are you? Claim an identity. If all you can respond with, is name calling, and trying to pin an identity on me, it's the sign of someone who has lost an arguement and has become desperate.

This is typical human nature on your behalf, you can't win, you know you can't win, so now you want to go personal, and throw insults. Yes the case is closed, you lost the debate.

LOLOLOLOL Your caught with your pants/panties down and you don't even know it. You keep proving my point, you are not a true humanist. Superior culture?? Who comes to america beleiving they have a superior culture?? Are you sure its them or you suspect that they don't think YOU have the superior culture?? Do you really need everybody so desperately to praise how great american culture is compared to others??? What a prick. And you call me the typical person?? You're like the poster child for the average american who has nothing but an ego agenda compare and contrast against everybody else!! You have to be the first, the best etc. Why do you think people dislike and bash americans? Don't pretend you respect other cultures when deep down you just respect your own. You are such a true humanist. LOLOLOLOL, MY BUTT!

Of course it seems like we play the role of the culturally superior foreigner because you force us to! You don't see or understand other people. FINE. NO ONE SAID YOU HAD TO VENTURE OUT OR MAKE FRIENDS. BUT DON'T EXPECT TO HAVE S0MEONE IN THE SAME SANDBOX AS YOU AND BE SELFISH AND BE LIKED! HUH? THATS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE. AGAIN, YOU MAKE NO SENSE.

The bottomline was you were pretending to be a humanist and a true humanist does not have such biased loyalty of "my american culture verus yours" that you do.

 

[TimeTraveler]

I read the post and didn't quite see what you said.



Every right.

And your country also has every right to be judged if you play by these rules, but how is this good or fair? How can you judge what you do not know?

The American cultural identity is something Americans know because they have been here, but when you look at America from the outside looking in, then it's very easy to think of America as this negative place filled with bad people, when it's never been that way.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

And your country also has every right to be judged if you play by these rules, but how is this good or fair? How can you judge what you do not know?

The American cultural identity is something Americans know because they have been here, but when you look at America from the outside looking in, then it's very easy to think of America as this negative place filled with bad people, when it's never been that way.

I've been there.

When the actions of the americans affect the world we have every right to judge them. Well, not everybody has that right, but I and some other people happen to life in democracies with certain rights, such as freedom of expression.

Learn to live with it or close your borders and don't cross them.

 

[Chatha]

"Prejudice is opinion without Judgement"
"Appreciation is a wonderful thing, it makes what is exellent in others belong to us as well"
"When it comes to money, everybody is equal" - Voltaire

There is not a Black America and a White America and Latino America and Asian America; there's the United States of America.

BARACK OBAMA, Of Thee I Speak: A Collection of Patriotic Quotes

America is not just a country, it's an idea.

BONO,

America is a vast conspiracy to make you happy.

JOHN UPDIKE, Problems and Other Stories

The bosom of America is open to receive not only the Opulent and respectable Stranger, but the oppressed and persecuted of all Nations And Religions; whom we shall wellcome to a participation of all our rights and previleges, if by decency and propriety of conduct they appear to merit the enjoyment.

GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter, Dec. 2, 1783

 

[draqon]

I read the post and didn't quite see what you said. Some other posts were maybe a bit heavy on the fucks, pricks, butts and whatever.



Every right.

I jus said that to make them continue the conversation. never reported anything or anything like that.

 

[TimeTraveler]

LOLOLOLOL Your caught with your pants/panties down and you don't even know it. You keep proving my point, you are not a true humanist. Superior culture?? Who comes to america beleiving they have a superior culture?? Are you sure its them or you suspect that they don't think YOU have the superior culture?? Do you really need everybody so desperately to praise how great american culture is compared to others??? What a prick. And you call me the typical person?? You're like the poster child for the average american who has nothing but an ego agenda compare and contrast against everybody else!! You have to be the first, the best etc. Why do you think people dislike and bash americans? Don't pretend you respect other cultures when deep down you just respect your own. You are such a true humanist. LOLOLOLOL, MY BUTT!

I respect PEOPLE. You said you are a human first, start to prove it by respecting PEOPLE above cultures. I respect people, I respect a cultures right to exist, but I do not believe all cultures are equal.

This means, your culture has a right to exist, that's respect. It does not mean your culture is perfect, or cannot be improved upon. You should understand, that in order to better yourself as a person, in order to better your culture, you NEED to recognize that it's your responsibility to adopt the best most positive elements of all cultures. You should study other cultures to learn the best elements from each.

If you love other cultures, it's not because you love the negative elements, it's because you love the positive elements, and yes you can intergrate the positive elements of American culture into your culture. You don't like rap music? That's fine, but there are positive elements in it which can be extended upon. You don't like Hollywood? Fine, but there are positive elements which you can extend upon.

Cultures are not equal, it's your job to take whats best from American culture and avoid taking the worst. If you think American culture is bad it's because you only focus on the bad side. If you think American people are bad it's because you only focus on the bad people.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

I jus said that to make them continue the conversation. never reported anything or anything like that.

I know. I just gave my opinion.

 

[TimeTraveler]

I've been there.

When the actions of the americans affect the world we have every right to judge them. Well, not everybody has that right, but I and some other people happen to life in democracies with certain rights, such as freedom of expression.

Learn to live with it or close your borders and don't cross them.

When the actions of bad individuals affect the world, they also affect Americans. The actions of bad people affect good people EVERYWHERE. Why do you ignore the good people in America just because of the actions of the bad? If you attack Americans as a group, you attack yourself.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

I
This means, your culture has a right to exist, that's respect. It does not mean your culture is perfect, or cannot be improved upon.

There is no such thing as guided progress in culture. Cultural evolution is pretty much an evil beast. It will incorporate anything that sticks for whatever reason. Improving things is not really a goal. Otherwise cultures would....improve.

I would not be ashamed to state that cultural evolution is pretty much mostly going downhill. Further and further we go from what we are. Humans. Our own biological nature is to blame. We are just too fucking adaptable. We can adapt to culture. It's a killer.

 

[TimeTraveler]

There is no such thing as guided progress in culture. Cultural evolution is pretty much an evil beast. It will incorporate anything that sticks for whatever reason. Improving things is not really a goal. Otherwise cultures would....improve.

I would not be ashamed to state that cultural evolution is pretty much mostly going downhill. Further and further we go from what we are. Humans. Our own biological nature is to blame. We are just too fucking adaptable. We can adapt to culture. It's a killer.

Thats crazy, cultural evolution is a result of memetic evolution, and memetic evolution is what guides human biological evolution. If what you are saying is true, we are doomed.

"Meme: an information pattern, held in an individual's memory, which is capable of being copied to another individual's memory.
Memetics: the theoretical and empirical science that studies the replication, spread and evolution of memes"
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/MEMES.html

I would not be ashamed to state that cultural evolution is pretty much mostly going downhill. Further and further we go from what we are. Humans. Our own biological nature is to blame. We are just too fucking adaptable. We can adapt to culture. It's a killer.

It's not that humans are too adaptable. Humans don't adapt to culture, humans design cultures and adapt cultures to themselves. If you make it seem like humans are tools or functions of cultural instruments, you dehumanize humanity into a cultural object instead of a cultural designer.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

When the actions of bad individuals affect the world, they also affect Americans. The actions of bad people affect good people EVERYWHERE. Why do you ignore the good people in America just because of the actions of the bad? If you attack Americans as a group, you attack yourself.

When the actions of the bad dominate there is really no purpose of thinking about the good of some.

I'm sure there are many good people in Iraq. That didn't stop the US from killing a few hundred thousand of them.

I'm sure there are some good Russians. That didn't stop the US from labeling the USSR as evil and their actions as evil.

It's a very pointless exercise to think like you do. Especially since americans have no respect for any culture if you look at their foreign policy. Power is the only thing that matters.

If you want respect for that then I can see why someone says fuck you. Or tries to kill you. That's because your view is delusional.

Respect is earned. If you sow shit in the world you going to reap shit.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

memetic evolution is what guides human biological evolution.

Really? You evolved to sit in a chair?

You biologically evolved to attend church on sunday to listen to some old fart talk about how jesus is going to save you? Sitting on a bench?

 

[Chatha]

The ironic thing about Timetravellers ideas is that the survival of culture is more important than the human and humanity. There is no such thing as bad actions of people, there is bad actions of culture. Everybody is born equal at first.

 

[Ayodhya]

The ironic thing about Timetravellers ideas is that the survival of culture is more important than the human and humanity. There is no such thing as bad actions of people, there is bad actions of culture. Everybody is born equal at first.

What?
As in, people are simply animals, and our upbringing is to blame for our poor choices in life?

 

[TimeTraveler]

spuriousmonkey;1258292]When the actions of the bad dominate there is really no purpose of thinking about the good of some.

That is a completely ignorant point of view.

I'm sure there are many good people in Iraq. That didn't stop the US from killing a few hundred thousand of them.

The President and the decision makers in the US and around the world invaded Iraq. If you disagree, ask then write the President about it, tell him.

I'm sure there are some good Russians. That didn't stop the US from labeling the USSR as evil and their actions as evil.

Be precise, groups of individuals in the US did that. The decision makers of the world did that. You seem to assume that every American has influence over the decisions of Americans leaders, it's not like that in America or in your country so why pretend?

It's a very pointless exercise to think like you do. Especially since americans have no respect for any culture if you look at their foreign policy. Power is the only thing that matters.

Stop blaming every single American for the decisions of American leadership. If you have a problem with how America is being run, you should discuss the situation from the right perspective.

If you want respect for that then I can see why someone says fuck you. Or tries to kill you. That's because your view is delusional.

You are now assuming that I made those decisions, as if I had anything to do with it. It's more that these political decisions are made because of practical concerns, or concerns of national security. America had a cold war against USSR not because Americans disliked Russians or any of that, it was about world domination, and it was a small group of individuals, and corporations, and people of this sort who wanted to control stuff like natural resources for the sake of increasing American national security. What you dont' want to do, is blame ALL Americans, including people who were children when this stuff happened, for the decisions of it's leadership.

Respect is earned. If you sow shit in the world you going to reap shit.

How do you figure? You figure that all Americans are equally responsible for the decisions and not the decision makers themselves?

Some decisions get made regardless of if Americans agree with them or not.

 

[Chatha]

What?
As in, people are simply animals, and our upbringing is to blame for our poor choices in life?

Believe it, many books have been written on the power of memes and culture. Many of the world's worst atrocities were not developed by just a human, but by the plethora of cultural ideas designed for a better mankind one way or the other. Adolf Hitler started and nearly defeated his purpose by propaganda, Mao had many Chinese students and civil rights activists murdered by the power of repeated memes. And when an individual commits a crime, you can be assured its based on one cultural reason or the other, either its for money to buy a new fancy car, which is advertised repeatedly on TV, or some other added valued entity. If you repeat something long enough, it will become true, and if you repeat it enough it will become more powerful than our own safety

 

[TimeTraveler]

The ironic thing about Timetravellers ideas is that the survival of culture is more important than the human and humanity. There is no such thing as bad actions of people, there is bad actions of culture. Everybody is born equal at first.

You got me wrong, my views are exactly the opposite.

People are not all born equal, as some are born with good or bad traits. Yes culture can make the difference and eventually equalize, and yes society is more important than the individuals because society protects people from each other. I do not say anywhere that culture is more important than people. I also do not say anywhere, that all people are born equal, as if all people are born with the same talents, the same intelligence, the same abilities, thats not true.

The survival of humanity is the law of nature. The survival and preservation of self is the first and most important law of existance. All other laws, come from that universal law, and the life liberty and happiness are the practical application.

Culture does not matter if humans go extinct, so my views are the exact opposite, it's that culture must assist humanity in avoiding extinction, and this is how you can seperate the good vs the bad aspects of a culture, you have to ask yourself who and what is it harming and does it increase or decrease the chance of our species surviving.

In this case, technology, scifi, star trek, are good.

 

[TimeTraveler]

Believe it, many books have been written on the power of memes and culture. Many of the world's worst atrocities were not developed by just a human, but by the plethora of cultural ideas designed for a better mankind one way or the other. Adolf Hitler started and nearly defeated his purpose by propaganda, Mao had many Chinese students and civil rights activists murdered by the power of repeated memes. And when an individual commits a crime, you can be assured its based on one cultural reason or the other, either its for money to buy a new fancy car, which is advertised repeatedly on TV, or some other added valued entity. If you rpeat something long enough, it will become true, and if you repeat it enough t will become more powerful than our own safety

The situations you talk about here, were not based on culture. It was human nature going down to it's more primitive forms. Violence is a primitive side of human nature, along with many other sides, it's not that culture is bad, but when a culture promotes violence then it becomes bad.