Is America built on Christianity?

[w1z4rd]

After a short conversation I had with Spuriosmonkey (spelling) I thought I would make a full thread about this.

The way we go into this discussion was when SM mentioned that a Christian nation invaded a Muslim country.

I then countered with the following quotes:

Thomas Jefferson "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

John Adams, 2nd President of the United States "The Government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion."

"He who says "The United States is a Christian nation founded upon Christian principles and beliefs" is woefully ignorant of history. The United States was founded by Deists, and the puritan settlers were but one immigrant group among many.

Thomas Jefferson "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear... "

The First Amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Thomas Jefferson "Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion?"

Treaty of Tipoli (Joel Barlow) Art. 11. "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never enArt. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.This treaty was endorsed by George Washington before he left office. It was then officially endorsed by John Adams and sent to the senate where it was officially ratified June 10, 1797..."

Thomas Jefferson, 1823 "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus…will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

Thomas Jefferson "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

I added a couple more for effect.

Now these days America has that wheel-tapper they call president in control and he makes a statement like:

43rd President George W. Bush, United States The United States is a Christian nation founded upon Christian principles and beliefs

George W. Bush I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

George W. Bush We need common-sense judges who understand that our rights were derived from God. Those are the kind of judges I intend to put on the bench.

George W. Bush I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job.

In Africa we have our problems, luckily its corruption and crime and not sick religious freaks like this in control Trolling aside...

From what I understand America is comprised of settlers who wanted to move away from religion?

 

[Enterprise-D]

Dubya likes to bandy about the phrase "one nation under god". Where did that phrase come from? Who weaseled it onto the US dollar?

From those quotes it seems that the origins of the United States included a movement away from monolith religions. Which makes sense since before independence they were under the heavily religious state of England.

It is ironic that England has rejected religion as a form of governance before the US when looking at it from this perspective.

 

[John99]

Hi w1z4rd,

It is a concept called tolerance, religious or otherwise. In that sense it is more liberal than SciForums.

 

[Godless]

From what I understand America is comprised of settlers who wanted to move away from religion?

NO! that's not entirely correct, the settlers who migrated here, did so to practice their religion in peace. Thus they were getting away from religious prosecutions.

 

[IceAgeCivilizations]

"Free exercise of religion," and that's not just confined to four walls.

 

[Enterprise-D]

I hardly equate practicing religion in peace to placing a restrictive label in a metropolitan country like the US.

 

[scorpius]

Dubya likes to bandy about the phrase "one nation under god". Where did that phrase come from? Who weaseled it onto the US dollar?

I understand it was in McCarthy era who was hunting anyone who was a commie sympathizer,when the cold war was on between Russia and US so they put this phrase 'under god' on money to make US look more holly or righteous, I guess

 

[w1z4rd]

You have freedom of religion...what about freedom from religion?

 

[Godless]

You have freedom of religion...what about freedom from religion?

I suppose we don't! but as we understand the US' constitution we should!

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

NO...

THE USA WAS BUILT APON THE IDEALS OF CALVINISM....

a branch of christianity.


calvinist... believed that their reward in heaven was in direct proporation to their wealth.... but not as horded gold...
but as real working producing industries...

the more employees a man had... the more his worth.

it was the idea... of RE-INVESTING YOUR WEALTH.
INSTEAD OF HORDING IT.

THIS RE-INVESTMENT OF WEALTH... is the basis of capitalism...

capital investments.

-MT

 

[ashura]

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

We are asked about this one on a fairly regular basis. As with many spurious Jefferson quotes, it is frequently seen on various Internet sites. Many sites do not cite a source, but a good number of those that do attribute this quote to a letter from TJ to a "Dr. Wood." As far as we know, TJ never wrote to an individual calling him/herself Dr. Wood. Another suspicious element is the statement that he does not find in Christianity "one redeeming feature." One presumes that Jefferson did, in fact, find some redeeming features in Christianity, otherwise he would not have taken the time to paste together his own versions of the Bible. See the report Jefferson's Religious Beliefs for more information.

This nation of ours was not founded on Christian principles.

* Source: "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" from Joel Barlow's English translation of the Treaty of Tripoli, ratified by Congress on June 10, 1797, when Adams was President. The quote is from Article 11 of the Treaty

from http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Adams

Thomas Jefferson "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear... "

He says question everything, as a true descendant of the Enlightenment would. He's not directly denying anything about Christianity anywhere.

Thomas Jefferson "Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion?"

Refers to the use of force for Christianity, nothing else.

The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter … But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

Read the full quote, especially the last line.

I'm not saying I disagree with you just yet, but if you're going to do this, at least do it properly.

 

[lightgigantic]

After a short conversation I had with Spuriosmonkey (spelling) I thought I would make a full thread about this.

The way we go into this discussion was when SM mentioned that a Christian nation invaded a Muslim country.

I then countered with the following quotes:



I added a couple more for effect.

Now these days America has that wheel-tapper they call president in control and he makes a statement like:




In Africa we have our problems, luckily its corruption and crime and not sick religious freaks like this in control Trolling aside...

From what I understand America is comprised of settlers who wanted to move away from religion?

the mood of the early american settlers was moving away from the institutionalizing of religion - perhaps similar to the protestants in some ways

basically it boils down to not the removal of institution from religion (which is inescapable for any religion, even for the most anti-institutional strains of zen buddhism ..... in fact for any field of knowledge) but a different mode of application advocated as the means to attain perfection - something like going back to grass roots

as for the current state of theistic affairs in contemporary america, certainly going back to the grass roots of their theistic culture would be an advancement (there is a whole attitude to christianity that was prevalent at the turn of the 19th century which is not even conceivable by the general public at the current time).

In the vedas a paradigm is given for the inseparable interaction between society and religiosity - first are religious principles, next comes economic development (since following things like 'thou shall not kill/steal/etc' enables the necessary social stability for economic development) next comes sense gratification (what else are they going to do with all that money) and then comes liberation - these ar e the four materialistic goals of religion which become visible when the fifth (pure love of god untouched by material desire) gets waylaid - perhaps you could say that the hippy movement of america in the sixties was an attempt for the society to be socialized around the principle of liberation, but since the hippies were socialized around things bereft of religious integrity (namely drug use and extremely loose sexual connections) rather than religiousity, they all either died or came back down to the level of sense gratification (ie yuppies)