Is America a Biblical Nation?

C

cygonaut

Registered Member
The myth that the United States is founded on the "Judeo-Christian Bible" persists and prospers despite readily available evidence. Contrary to popular belief, the Founding Fathers rejected the biblical model in favor of a secular model of government.

http://hnn.us/articles/1854.html
 
Originally posted by cygonaut
The myth that the United States is founded on the "Judeo-Christian Bible" persists and prospers despite readily available evidence. Contrary to popular belief, the Founding Fathers rejected the biblical model in favor of a secular model of government.

http://hnn.us/articles/1854.html
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M*W: Amen, and welcome!
 
its not so much that the Founding Fathers were Christian in the truest sense, but most if not all did accept the Judaic-Christian Code of ethics. They just didn't want a secular thing like a govt. to become a religious thing. The results of such a combination of such can be seen in the combination of the Christian religion becoming one with the Roman Empire. Dostoevsky I think said it best:

"During the first three centuries, Christianity existed on Earth as a church. But when the pagan Roman Empire decided to become Christian, it simply incorporated the Church while, in fact, remaining essentially pagan"-The Brothers Karamazov
 
My answer is yes, America is a Biblical Nation, or at least used to be. I believe that the United States was founded on Christian principles from the very beginning. Nearly every writer of the Constitution was a devout Christian. They even opened in prayer in the mornings, a practice approved by even the least religious writers, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. The reason this is not as obvious as is, is that they very much did not want to set up an "official religion."

So many people had escaped from England because of religious persecution, so the founders wanted to "nip it in the bud." Really they were mostly thinking of denominations within Christianity, but they would also have wanted other religions to be tolerated.

But prayer, references to God, and other Christian things in public places, were very important to the founders. See this:

http://www.errantskeptics.org/David_Barton_Kansas.htm

There is no constitutional "wall of separation between church and state." Check a copy of the US Constitution. It's not there. The quote is from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote.

Lately people have taken "freedom of religion" to mean "freedom from religion," an extremely different idea.

Lastly, I believe that America's Christian ideals are being eroded upon from every side, and that this is a very bad thing.

--Aaron
 
I find it interesting that Christian leaders tend to support those countries and military adventures where they happen to have their church located. Christian churches in France support France, those in Germany are pro-German, etc. Maybe this is just "common sense" or human nature. I'm not sure.

In contrast, I understand that in Islam the nation MUST be supported by "God" or, probably more specificly, the clerics that they believe represent this deity.

I'm strongly in favor of separation of church and state. But it seems to me that with Islam there may be a problem in forcing a Democracy on these people if it includes strong language about splitting up these two institutions.
 
Yes, but "separation of church and state" used to mean keeping the state out of the church, not the other way around.

As for leaders supporting their own country's churches, and vice versa, I think that's human nature. But you should know that even widely disparate denominations of Christianity agree wholeheartedly on the basics: that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He loves us so much he became a perfect sacrifice so that we could be free from sin, sickness and death, and that He rose from the dead and reigns forever at God's side. And that someday, perhaps soon, He is coming back.

--Aaron
 
Originally posted by Aaron Rider
But you should know that even widely disparate denominations of Christianity agree wholeheartedly on the basics: that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He loves us so much he became a perfect sacrifice so that we could be free from sin, sickness and death, and that He rose from the dead and reigns forever at God's side.
--Aaron
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Oh yeah.....then why don't you go to the Jehovah wittness kingdom hall or the mormons temple, or even better a catholic church, for their meetings and masses for the rest of the year...??? Afterall, it's all the same basic crap as you say....And don't tell me, they are not christians, because they claim to be better christians than you.
 
Originally posted by Flores
Oh yeah.....then why don't you go to the Jehovah wittness kingdom hall or the mormons temple, or even better a catholic church, for their meetings and masses for the rest of the year...??? Afterall, it's all the same basic crap as you say....And don't tell me, they are not christians, because they claim to be better christians than you.
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M*W: Thanks, Flores. You beat me to it! If this country were based on Christian values, I guarantee you that no other churches or faiths would be here, and those that might try to start-up would be banned. Yes, we do have "freedom OF religion," to worship whatever we wish, but those of us who are offended or opposed or simply confused about religion, need to have our rights protected from "freedom FROM religion." I think it should be at least a misdemeanor to solicit another person about religion. These folks need to keep it in their churches and homes, and not pester the general public with their belief systems.

I venture to say that those calling themselves "Christians" today are about as far from the teachings of Jesus that could possibly be. Those calling themselves "Christians" today have been brainwashed by Pauline intervention. I doubt that there are any true Christians left. Give it a few years and they'll all be gone. How funny it is that Christians still believe they are the biggest religion out there. Hello?
 
Originally posted by Aaron Rider

Lately people have taken "freedom of religion" to mean "freedom from religion," an extremely different idea.

--Aaron
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WRONG to an INCREDIBLE degree. And, this kind of thinking is why fundies are so damn dangerous, they believe they KNOW the truth, and want to shove it down everyone elses throat.

I strongly suggest that you;
a. Read the Constitution again
b. Consult any Constitutional scholar of your choice.

You know - if your wonderful Christian ideals or so damn compelling - then why do you need the government to support your views??

When Christians are thrown in jail for their beliefs (those idiots who deny medical care to their kids are an obvious exception) then you'lll have a point. Until then please leave us all alone.

Barkhorn.
 
M*W:

What does true Christian belief entail, in your opinion? How does it differ from the kind you're complaining about?
 
Oh yeah.....then why don't you go to the Jehovah wittness kingdom hall or the mormons temple, or even better a catholic church, for their meetings and masses for the rest of the year...??? Afterall, it's all the same basic crap as you say....And don't tell me, they are not christians, because they claim to be better christians than you.
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Flores, now where will you find a statement from Vatican that says that Catholics are better Christians? I've only heard from them that what we proclaim is true and that we are the Church that Christ established. Well, isn't it common sense that the religion you believe in says what they teach is true?



M*W: Thanks, Flores. You beat me to it! If this country were based on Christian values, I guarantee you that no other churches or faiths would be here, and those that might try to start-up would be banned. Yes, we do have "freedom OF religion," to worship whatever we wish, but those of us who are offended or opposed or simply confused about religion, need to have our rights protected from "freedom FROM religion." I think it should be at least a misdemeanor to solicit another person about religion. These folks need to keep it in their churches and homes, and not pester the general public with their belief systems.
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Quite a good bit of the American Individualism came from the puritans that settled this country. In fact, the founding Father's wanted freedom to worship as they please, not freedom from worship.
 
Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
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I think it should be at least a misdemeanor to solicit another person about religion. These folks need to keep it in their churches and homes, and not pester the general public with their belief systems.
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There is a difference between discussion of beliefs and pestering people with them. So what's so dangerous about fundamentalism? Ideas? Granted, some people have bad ideas about evangelism and become merely obnoxious; unfortunately, sometimes these are by far the most visible to the public.

As for Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc., I know that there are people in these churches that I believe God accepts as true Christians, i.e. they have accepted a personal relationship with Jesus.

Getting back to the main topic: although this motto only goes back to the Civil War, the US Motto is "In God We Trust."

--Aaron
 
bucklew.jpg


Above is a little comical twist I made to an old NAZI WWII belt buckle.

The wording on it is the same as the original however and means, "God with us".
 
... yes, some of the worst atrocities in history were committed in God's name. The Spanish Inquisition, for instance. So all people claiming to be Christians are evil? I don't think so.

Can you judge all people claiming to be scientists by the paranormalists?

--Aaron
 
Originally posted by okinrus
Flores, now where will you find a statement from Vatican that says that Catholics are better Christians? I've only heard from them that what we proclaim is true and that we are the Church that Christ established. Well, isn't it common sense that the religion you believe in says what they teach is true?
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I'm responding to a claim that all christians are lovy duffy agreebale of everything in the bible...which is clearly not true...I challenged the guy who made the statement to visit a Jehova wittness congregation or Catholic church to proof to me that his claim is correct....What you are replying to doesn't pertain anything to the subject of discussion.


Originally posted by okinrus
Quite a good bit of the American Individualism came from the puritans that settled this country. In fact, the founding Father's wanted freedom to worship as they please, not freedom from worship.
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Freedom to worship as one please is entertwined with freedom from other's worship...It's one in the same and forces religion to become private... How can I worship as I please while my federal government only gives Sunday's off for the christians to worship? How can worship what I please if my work makes me work past sun set when I'm supposed to breaking fast? The answer is not to worship as we please, the answer is to set religion aside and confine it to privacy outside of work, government, ect......That was the intent of the founding fathers.
 
Originally posted by Aaron Rider
There is a difference between discussion of beliefs and pestering people with them. So what's so dangerous about fundamentalism? Ideas? --Aaron
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Here is what's so dangerous about fundamentalist beliefs. They are so narrow-minded and sure of their theology that they are willing to ride roughshod over the constitution and the liberties of people who don't agree with them, endangering their own liberty in the process: Here is a link to a current issue in Chesterfield, Va, where the local governing body said that a Wiccan doesn't have the right to lead an invocation before a public meeting even though a Christian has been leading one for years.

http://www.au.org/press/pr021206.htm

Christian fundamentalists in this case (as in others) seem to be incapable of the simple rational act of logical extension. Suppose they prevailed in this case, and then somewhere down the road christianity becomes the minority religion and say, islam, becomes the majority religion. By there own standards, these fundamendalists would have to tolerate invocations to allah by the local mullah.

And don't get me started on the Judiasers who want the 10 commandments on display in government buildings. Christians are freed in Christ from 'the law' and have been commanded only to love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself'. All the law and prophets hang on this. It is a testament to the fundamentalists lack of faith in the reality of the Holy Spirit and God's soveriegnty that they constantly fall back on rules, regulations, idolatrous bible worship and their own power and worldy abilities.

phew - I feel much better now.
 
Originally posted by Aaron Rider
... yes, some of the worst atrocities in history were committed in God's name. The Spanish Inquisition, for instance. So all people claiming to be Christians are evil? I don't think so.

Can you judge all people claiming to be scientists by the paranormalists?

--Aaron
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No, no, no. You misunderstood my post.

It was my response to your, " Getting back to the main topic: although this motto only goes back to the Civil War, the US Motto is 'In God We Trust.' "

How important is the motto, "In God We Trust" to you?

Do you think this motto is accurate?
 
Originally posted by okinrus
In fact, the founding Father's wanted freedom to worship as they please, not freedom from worship.
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Again, this is WRONG!

We have all heard that the founding Fathers were all god fearing Christian men and that this nation rests on a Judeo-Christian foundation. Curiously, these same men created a document - the Constitution - that does not mention god even once! That’s right – not once. Look it up right here;
(http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html).
The Constitution - the supreme law of this land - written by some of the wisest men of their age, does not mention god even once. The Constitution does however mention religion – once – as part of the 1st Amendment, which reads as follows:
“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”
This clause, “the Establishment Clause”, is the basis for the principle of the separation of church and state.

Some of the Founding Fathers were the descendants of the Puritans. You know the Puritans. They came to the New World to escape religious persecution at the hands of the Church of England. And when they got here they practiced a brand of intolerance far harsher than what they had ever experienced in Europe. I’m certain that the history of the Massachusetts Bay Colony and of Rhode Island gave the Founding Fathers pause regarding any future coupling of religious observance with state power.

There is endless debate about what the Fathers “intended” and how they wrote about god and religious matters in their private correspondence to each other all the time. All of that is beside the point. The point is what they actually did! And what they did was to see fit to exclude god and religion from the Constitution. And then they added a safeguard to ensure that the state would take NO role in religious matters.

Barkhorn.
 
Originally posted by Barkhorn1x
Again, this is WRONG!

Some of the Founding Fathers were the descendants of the Puritans. You know the Puritans. They came to the New World to escape religious persecution at the hands of the Church of England. And when they got here they practiced a brand of intolerance far harsher than what they had ever experienced in Europe. I’m certain that the history of the Massachusetts Bay Colony and of Rhode Island gave the Founding Fathers pause regarding any future coupling of religious observance with state power.

Barkhorn.
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I'm sure they were more mindful of the Church of Englands effect on the State, and the attempt to transplant that model to the new world, than anything the puritans up north may or may not have done while they were under the influence of ergotamine. [ok, doesn't relate directly to your argument, but I thought it was cute]. Perhaps we should investigate if any atrocities your direct ancestors committed might effect your particular beliefs.
 
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