Is a person who claims to know God, humble?

[wynn]

Is a person who believes themselves to be acting in the world doing God's will, humble?

If a person claims to be able to discern "This is from God, and that is from the Devil" - is such a person humble?

If a person, in public, claims "This is the truth about God" - is such a person humble?

 

[lightgigantic]

Is a person who believes themselves to be acting in the world doing God's will, humble?

If they add a couple of degrees of service, yes - servant of the servant of the servant etc

If a person claims to be able to discern "This is from God, and that is from the Devil" - is such a person humble?


If a person, in public, claims "This is the truth about God" - is such a person humble?

Not sure how this fits - I mean how would you respond to ....


If a person claims that such persons who claim to be able to discern "This is from God, and that is from the Devil" are not humble - is such a person humble?


If a person claims that such persons who, in public, claim "This is the truth about God" are not humble - is such a person humble?

:shrug:

 

[wynn]

If they add a couple of degrees of service, yes - servant of the servant of the servant etc

It's not clear why this would change anything.


Said individual is still presuming to know who is a servant of God, thus presuming himself to know God.

So adding a few degrees of service, or other instaces of mediation, doesn't change anything.

Not sure how this fits - I mean how would you respond to ....

If a person claims that such persons who claim to be able to discern "This is from God, and that is from the Devil" are not humble - is such a person humble?

If a person claims that such persons who, in public, claim "This is the truth about God" are not humble - is such a person humble?

For one, I'm not the one making an argument for my own humility or lack thereof.
Theists, however, do tend to make a point of their own humility.


Secondly, I did not actually say that
Such persons who claim to be able to discern "This is from God, and that is from the Devil" are not humble;
such persons who, in public, claim "This is the truth about God" are not humble.

I do note that it brings confusion (sometimes a lot of confusion) to listeners when someone claims to be able to discern "This is from God, and that is from the Devil" or "This is the truth about God."


In fact, the Buddha's first sermon after he attained Awakening was "I am the rightfully self-enlightend one" to the first person he met on the road. The person looked at him in confusion and walked away.
After that, the Buddha (with some encouragement from the Devas) decided that proclaiming his qualifications put people off and was counterproductive to his efforts to enlighten others, and after that, he didn't do it anymore, but changed his approach to teaching others.

I wonder if theists would be willing to take this lesson from the Buddha ...

 

[NMSquirrel]

Is a person who believes themselves to be acting in the world doing God's will, humble?

If a person claims to be able to discern "This is from God, and that is from the Devil" - is such a person humble?

If a person, in public, claims "This is the truth about God" - is such a person humble?

i try..and fail..most times..

but remember that we are human too..

 

[arauca]

It's not clear why this would change anything.


Said individual is still presuming to know who is a servant of God, thus presuming himself to know God.

So adding a few degrees of service, or other instaces of mediation, doesn't change anything.




For one, I'm not the one making an argument for my own humility or lack thereof.
Theists, however, do tend to make a point of their own humility.


Secondly, I did not actually say that
Such persons who claim to be able to discern "This is from God, and that is from the Devil" are not humble;
such persons who, in public, claim "This is the truth about God" are not humble.

I do note that it brings confusion (sometimes a lot of confusion) to listeners when someone claims to be able to discern "This is from God, and that is from the Devil" or "This is the truth about God."


In fact, the Buddha's first sermon after he attained Awakening was "I am the rightfully self-enlightend one" to the first person he met on the road. The person looked at him in confusion and walked away.
After that, the Buddha (with some encouragement from the Devas) decided that proclaiming his qualifications put people off and was counterproductive to his efforts to enlighten others, and after that, he didn't do it anymore, but changed his approach to teaching others.

I wonder if theists would be willing to take this lesson from the Buddha ...

Well I tray to be humble I pray to God to help me to be humble , I make my attempt I fail , perhaps for some of us it takes longer the to others , Every day is a chalange.

 

[Pineal]

Is a person who believes themselves to be acting in the world doing God's will, humble?

If a person claims to be able to discern "This is from God, and that is from the Devil" - is such a person humble?

If a person, in public, claims "This is the truth about God" - is such a person humble?

I think the above is a bit messy. IOW I think a person could be humble in many ways, perhaps in general, but when asked they say, Oh, yes, I believe Jesus is the way. (with the implicit final and generalness of this belief present).

So one could still find such a person and call them humble. They don't presume most of the time to be better than other people and so on.

But where I agree with you is that someone cannot be entirely humble, through and through, and publically claim to be certain about anything, especially tricky things that require strong intuition or skill. A surgeon certain about how to approach a tricky bypass and taking up the scalpel cannot be entirely humble - or they should pass the scalpel to a colleague. Likewise with 'knowing God' or doing God's will, etc,. especially if this is expressed in such a vague generalized way.

 

[Pineal]

If they add a couple of degrees of service, yes - servant of the servant of the servant etc

Could you put this in context of the issue of 'knowing God'. In one sentence or expression, I mean.

Such as 'I am a humble person who as a servant of a servant knows God.'

I couldn't quite come up with a way this could all be expressed.

 

[lightgigantic]

It's not clear why this would change anything.


Said individual is still presuming to know who is a servant of God, thus presuming himself to know God.

So adding a few degrees of service, or other instaces of mediation, doesn't change anything.

you are doing the exact same thing when you talk about buddha - ie "I may not be the enlightened one but buddha is and just listen to what I got to say about what he said about it ..yada yada yada"
:shrug:

For one, I'm not the one making an argument for my own humility or lack thereof.
Theists, however, do tend to make a point of their own humility.

I wasn't talking about your lack of humility - I was talking about how on earth one constructs the axis of such statements into run downs on humility - IOW its kind of on par with "are persons who wear blue shoes humble?" or are persons who have moustaches humble?

In fact, the Buddha's first sermon after he attained Awakening was "I am the rightfully self-enlightend one" to the first person he met on the road. The person looked at him in confusion and walked away.
After that, the Buddha (with some encouragement from the Devas) decided that proclaiming his qualifications put people off and was counterproductive to his efforts to enlighten others, and after that, he didn't do it anymore, but changed his approach to teaching others.

So you are trying to say that Buddha is ultimately not humble since he wasn't completely successful in disguising his enlightened state ... or do you mean to say something along the lines that similar notions can be found in contrasting the dialogue coming from kannisthas and uttamas ??

I wonder if theists would be willing to take this lesson from the Buddha ...

It seems that even the buddha couldn't take this own lesson since one can hardly make reference to him nowadays as a personality with no qualification in spiritual matters.

 

[Pineal]

Is a person who believes themselves to be acting in the world doing God's will, humble?

If a person claims to be able to discern "This is from God, and that is from the Devil" - is such a person humble?

If a person, in public, claims "This is the truth about God" - is such a person humble?

I was also thinking that the act of publicly or at least interpersonally saying
this is the truth about God
raises not only epistemological issues, but also, often, raises issues around the expertise of talking to other people about God.

In many of the religions I encountered there were ideas floating around around the issue of someone perhaps, yes, knowing the truth, but not knowing how to communicate to others. That these people could make mistakes because they do not know what others need to hear, when they need to hear it, how the truths should be expressed and so on.

IOW the act of uttering something True about God - and perhaps other things - is a double act and one perhaps should have interpersonal skills and a powerful intuition not just in the epistemological sense of treating one's own belief as knowledge.

 

[Pineal]

If a person claims that such persons who claim to be able to discern "This is from God, and that is from the Devil" are not humble - is such a person humble?

No, I am not humble on that issue. I feel I have insight here, a skill. And those people are not, on that issue, being humble. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but not owning up to it is irritating.

If a person claims that such persons who, in public, claim "This is the truth about God" are not humble - is such a person humble?

Same response.

Likewise a surgeon or other expert is not being humble when they speak with confidence about 'what needs to be done' or what the problem is. And that can be OK. If the person indeed has the skill implicit in their certainty.

 

[Pineal]

I wasn't talking about your lack of humility - I was talking about how on earth one constructs the axis of such statements into run downs on humility - IOW its kind of on par with "are persons who wear blue shoes humble?" or are persons who have moustaches humble?

NO, that is ridiculous. People with mustaches, as far as I know, have no statistical liklihood to think humility is a sacred trait in a person - over and above those without mustaches. People who claim to do God's will however are much more likely to praise humility.

 

[lightgigantic]

Could you put this in context of the issue of 'knowing God'. In one sentence or expression, I mean.

Such as 'I am a humble person who as a servant of a servant knows God.'

I couldn't quite come up with a way this could all be expressed.

It means that one is making a claim of knowledge about god that is expressed through a long line of other personalities and references to knowledge about god - even Signal does the same sort of thing when talking about Buddha. IOW she is not saying "this is my personal perspective on buddha that flies in the face of everything anyone has said about him".

It may seem like a minor detail but the essence of a lack of humility when it comes to any (spiritual) authority is to suggest "OK they are number one (after all there is no way I can realistically hope to convince you that I am on par with them) but I am number two - so listen up". IOW it becomes a dialogue simply aimed at usurping the authority.

 

[Pineal]

i try..and fail..most times..

but remember that we are human too..

Do you say those things and at the same time believe you are humble?

That's more the issue.

Signal is asking if one can both be humble and make those utterances. IOW are they mutually exclusive.

To respond that you try, implies that they are not mutually exclusive. Do you believe then that they are not mutually exclusive?

 

[Pineal]

It means that one is making a claim of knowledge about god that is expressed through a long line of other personalities and references to knowledge about god - even Signal does the same sort of thing when talking about Buddha. IOW she is not saying "this is my personal perspective on buddha that flies in the face of everything anyone has said about him".

Setting aside whether Signal does it too, I don't think this evades the problem. There are many beliefs that have been around a long time. The person in question is still deciding this lineage or camp is the right one or at least a right one. They are still making an implicit claim to having the skill to discern, out of all the long lived beliefs out there, which ones can be trusted because of their ability to choose the correct authorities.

It may seem like a minor detail but the essence of a lack of humility when it comes to any (spiritual) authority is to suggest "OK they are number one (after all there is no way I can realistically hope to convince you that I am on par with them) but I am number two - so listen up". IOW it becomes a dialogue simply aimed at usurping the authority.

I am not sure I got this part. I could almost say this supports what Signal is saying, so I must not have understood.

 

[Pineal]

you are doing the exact same thing when you talk about buddha - ie "I may not be the enlightened one but buddha is and just listen to what I got to say about what he said about it ..yada yada yada"
:shrug:

Assuming it is true, for the sake of argument, that Signal did this. Was this wrong of S to do this?

So you are trying to say that Buddha is ultimately not humble since he wasn't completely successful in disguising his enlightened state ... or do you mean to say something along the lines that similar notions can be found in contrasting the dialogue coming from kannisthas and uttamas ??

If the Buddha wrote or said the teaching's attibuted to him and also asserted he was humble, I would not be able to hold back laughter. I would then ask, but you do think you have incredible insight and are a kind of incredible expert?

If he said no, I would laugh again and avoid him.

Likewise if Jesus asserted he was humble, period. I would have to feedback some of his quotes, ask if they were in fact things he said, and then laugh if he was really trying to assert he was nothing special and had no special skills and gifts.

I'd also rush out and try to raise the dead.

 

[lightgigantic]

No, I am not humble on that issue. I feel I have insight here, a skill. And those people are not, on that issue, being humble. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but not owning up to it is irritating.
Same response.

Likewise a surgeon or other expert is not being humble when they speak with confidence about 'what needs to be done' or what the problem is. And that can be OK. If the person indeed has the skill implicit in their certainty.

so knowledge competes with humility?
I think its more the attitude one has to things (including knowledge) and how this pertains to one's self that translates into humility. That way one can talk about humility in such a fashion that it isn't monopolized by the the uninformed and ignorant.

NO, that is ridiculous. People with mustaches, as far as I know, have no statistical liklihood to think humility is a sacred trait in a person - over and above those without mustaches. People who claim to do God's will however are much more likely to praise humility.

Its not so much about attitudes to humility as an esteemed quality but how one can translate the statement "Person X has a moustache/knowledge of god/blue shoes" and is therefore not/humble."

IOW I can only see it working anecdotally eg "Just look at Hitler - he had a moustache ... yada yada yada"

 

[lightgigantic]

Assuming it is true, for the sake of argument, that Signal did this. Was this wrong of S to do this?

I didn't suggest it was wrong - I did suggest how its quite clear that adding a few degrees of service certainly DOES change things

If the Buddha wrote or said the teaching's attibuted to him and also asserted he was humble, I would not be able to hold back laughter. I would then ask, but you do think you have incredible insight and are a kind of incredible expert?

If he said no, I would laugh again and avoid him.

Likewise if Jesus asserted he was humble, period. I would have to feedback some of his quotes, ask if they were in fact things he said, and then laugh if he was really trying to assert he was nothing special and had no special skills and gifts.

I'd also rush out and try to raise the dead.

SO IOW you are saying that knowledge (ie being an authority in a field, even the topmost) and humility are not mutually exclusive?

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

I would say yes . See like Me . You all just think cause of the appearance of my ego . My Megalomaniacness that I might not know what the word humble means . That is a long ways from the truth . If someone asks Me to do something if I find it helpful for that person I do it .

Humility is a funny thing . Like water . Submission and things like that . Knowing dependency . It is all about pitching in . Pitching in with gladness to pitch in . The joy of pitching in . Is that a humble spirit ? To do it with out griping about it . Rolling up the sleeves and getting it done whether you want to our not .

It is when you don't want to and you do it anyway cause you know it is the right thing to do . It can be any task. Cleaning up after a big dinner ? Putting away chairs after a school concert . Yeah Pitching in shows Me a contrite spirit and when you don't have to ask and the pitch in comes in anyway then you know you got someone with a contrite spirit that is willing to help get it done . If they are doing it to help the group with out reward to them selves then I got to believe they care about others besides them selves . Now if they take the attitude " Some one else can do it I'm out of here < Hi Bye mud in your eye . Thanks for meal See yeah . Well you get the idea .

It is like the difference between scamming the system and doing as little as possible cause you are not happy about the wage you make . That is a dead end . When you are there to do the best that you can with out complaints you will be more than likely be rewarded , If not immediately then when you get the next job because of being more qualified but the humble person don't do it for that . The extra money is in appropriation of your gung ho attitude , yet the motivation is to do a better job as to improve the over all condition of everyone involved . I call it pulling at the ores . You get one selfish person who don't pull to there capabilities and the rest have to pick up the slack . That person is not Humble to me . The humble person might let them get away with it and carry the extra load , yet does that really help the slacker ? I think a pink slip might help em better .

I don't know for sure . I have picked up the slack a lot and this does seem to prevent the slacker from growing . They become complacent in there roll of slacking . Not until they have to stand on there own do they typically take more responsibility. I tried to build it into My employees yet I could see my self tearing them down by not letting them take responsibility of the situation them selves . Like Government does to the entitled. It is a fine line to do to much and strip someone else of accomplishment and lending a helping hand.

 

[kx000]

Not about this topic, I cant read most of these post. Everything we are discussing here is backwards according to everything I know.

 

[NietzscheHimself]

Is a person who believes themselves to be acting in the world doing God's will, humble?

Not If His only claim to humility is the words he speaks.

If a person claims to be able to discern "This is from God, and that is from the Devil" - is such a person humble?

If he claims to do a better job at it than most people then absolutely not.

If a person, in public, claims "This is the truth about God" - is such a person humble?

Only if some person bothered him all day about something that is obviously false. Such a situation can cause even a saint to humiliate another person publicly.

Ha ha ha ha ha. Such a word as "humble" bears a striking resemblance in meaning to a very misunderstood German word. Starts with an "S"