Is a mammoth clone possible/ethical?

With current technology, the idea of cloning mammoths by nuclear transfer is entirely fiction. To be sure, it is based on real-world fact, but in the same way Capt. Kirk’s USS Enterprise is based on a Boeing 747-400.

Cloning by nuclear transfer involves transferring a donor nucleus into an enucleated ovum. At present, and for the foreseeable future, nuclear transfer requires pristine nuclei. Merely having an organism’s isolated DNA is not sufficient, you need whole undamaged nuclei from the cells of the organism and the nuclei need to contain completely undamaged DNA. The only way to achieve this is to clone from living cells, or living cells that have been meticulously prepared and frozen in liquid nitrogen so that they can be re-animated in cell culture at a future time. These are the only ways that the nuclear DNA suffers no damage. There have been instances where dead animals have been cloned (eg. a prize breeding steer from Texas), but in all these cases samples were taken before death and prepared as I just described. Siberian tundra is cold but not nearly as cold as liquid nitrogen. A 10,000 year old frozen mammoth whose cells have undergone numerous freeze thaw cycles will not contain useable nuclei for cloning a new animal as there will be DNA degradation and fragmentation. Even a little bit precludes the technique.

Confusion sometimes arises because people do not realize that most routine DNA analysis techniques do not require pristine DNA, and that the words “clone” and “cloning” have multiple meanings depending on the context. So it is possible the clone<SUP>*</SUP> genes from the extracted mammoth DNA but not possible to clone<SUP>*</SUP> a new mammoth using the extracted mammoth DNA.

<blockquote><SUP>*</SUP>The first instance of the word clone refers to isolating a relatively small piece of DNA that encodes a gene and inserting it into bacteria so that unlimited new copies of that DNA can be made for further analysis. The second instance refers to generating a whole new embryo by nuclear transfer and using a surrogate female to carry the resulting animal.</blockquote>

The linked article was interesting in terms of the ethics discussion and background info – thanks for the link. :) But it didn’t provide much reality in terms of the science.

Under Feasibility it says:

Experts in the cloning field have claimed that if DNA of suitable quality and quantity is recovered, there will be little difficulty in producing a clone.
Yes, well I would say that statement is rather specious and probably reflects the usual selective interpretation of “expert opinions” that one finds in science reporting. The “if” in that statement is the stumbling block, and it’s a very bigif”. And even “if DNA of suitable quality and quantity is recovered” it is a far cry to then say that “there will be little difficulty in producing a clone”.

Why? The problem is mentioned here:

b) Body cells. As with Dolly, the cloned sheep, it is not necessary to have sexual reproduction to obtain a clone. In this technique, the egg of an Asian elephant would have the nucleus destroyed and replaced with the nucleus of a mammoth specimen. If successful, the resulting clone would be genetically all mammoth.
Since there are no mammoths in existence, a cross-species surrogate would be needed. This has already been achieved in other extant animals, but it adds a considerable degree of complexity to the whole procedure. The mammoth nucleus would need to be introduced into an elephant egg and the resulting mammoth embryo brought to term in an elephant female.

And the Possibilities of Success section is somewhat hollow:

The technology of cloning is new and its potential mostly unrealized, but there are reasons to be optimistic:
There have been many recent cloning successes: sheep, calves, kittens, monkeys, guars, mouflon sheep, the Arabian oryx, the African quagga, and others.
Yes, and all these examples of cloning success were achieved using living cells. The rest of that section is mere speculation on what animal cloning might mean for endangered species. Interesting to speculate on but does not constitute any supporting evidence for Possibilities of Success in cloning a mammoth.
 
while cloning may not be possible, i think that given enough time it would be possible to map out a mammoths DNA well enough that something ilke an elephant could be genetically modified to be as close to a mammoth as we will ever see
 
I appreciate the responses, especially yours Hercules. I'll share this information with my students. I was, as I always am, skeptical of internet sources such as this one. I just came across it and found the discussion interesting. Thanks again!
 
Golgi is my Homeboy said:
I was, as I always am, skeptical of internet sources such as this one. I just came across it and found the discussion interesting. Thanks again!
I too found the discussion very interesting. I noticed that the author has some impressive credentials - Ph.D. and professor emeritus at Northern Arizona University. :eek: But he is a paleontologist, not a geneticist. I have no doubt his article was very accurate and informative when it refers to the history of mammoths, and his ethical discussion about whether we should clone mammoths was valid and interesting. It's just that he left his area of expertise when he discussed whether we can clone mammoths.
 
I'm wondering if it is even a waste of time to try to clone a mammoth before the mommoth genome is totally mapped. It will be impossible to clone anything with a nucleus that is not 100% accurate. Gross mistakes, and even small ones can result in grossly inaccurate development, resulting in arrest of development. Or development not even starting.

So you would have to make sure you have a viable mammoth nucleus. Are you going to map the genome of the mammoth first? A mammoth of a task. Not sure it is viable. Are we going to make an entire set of nuclear DNA? Unheard of tehcnology. And use that? Untested technology?

Or just go blind? Take a million nuclei and hope one will be ok? Has anyone got the technology to clone an elephant? Is a mammoth different. Will the host egg cell be compatible? Will we be able to find a nucleus that is capable of running the developmental program. Not all cells are equally suited for cloning.

I wouldn't even know where to start. So many ifs.
 
There are more practical problems. The number of chromosomes of mammoths (58) is different from elephants (56) reducing the chance of successful crossbreeding, even if palaeo sperm was available. But even if the science was all taken care of, you'd still have to manage many elephants under labratory conditions.

Agenbroad also sees a problem with habitat. The Pleistocene megafauna steppe does not exist anymore. This was a weird place, containing both tundra taxa and much more southerly steppe taxa. It was arid enough to allow grazing thoughout winter season as typical insect remains show (little or no snow). Yet it was productive enough to sustain herds of buffaloes, horses, antelopes, giant deer, etc, etc, Did I forget to mention mammoths? So this productivity also puts minimum limits on aridness, temperatures and light(!) Nevertheless the Wooly Mammoth was a grazer, specialized on hard grasses (Gramininae) and would be able to live whereever wild horses live.

Agenbroad also mentions the mystery of the extinction, conceeding that people didn't do it. But what did then? With a little luck there will be a study in the magazin "Quartenary International" at the end of this year, which will proof unambigeously whodunnit.
 
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Golgi is my Homeboy said:
I'm new here, but I'm sure cloning is a recurring topic. The following source discusses the feasibility and morality of cloning mammoths.

http://www.actionbioscience.org/biotech/agenbroad.html

The TV shows are fine and good, but I want to know what you all think of this issue.

Will it happen? If so, what about other extinct fauna or even humans?

What dies...must stay dead. Thats what evolution is for. Otherwise all that time spent by process of evolution gets lost to nowhere.
 
Well, they miiiiight swing it if they cloned and sequenced all the DNA bits for a few individuals, picked up the overlaps and pieced it all together. It's true you'd need the chromosomes, though. Elephant probably not all that close. Maybe they could extract some functionals and inject them into an elephant. I'd like to see it done or tried, I think.

And I'd like to own the first one so that I could sell it. :D

Geoff
 
Golgi is my Homeboy said:
I'm new here, but I'm sure cloning is a recurring topic. The following source discusses the feasibility and morality of cloning mammoths.

http://www.actionbioscience.org/biotech/agenbroad.html

The TV shows are fine and good, but I want to know what you all think of this issue.

Will it happen? If so, what about other extinct fauna or even humans?

On the ethical level: how would it be that different from keeping animals in zoos? I assume that would be the fate of any clone-outs, since you'd have to be nuts to let animals that valuable just walk around loose. As long as they could be assured not to be in pain and reasonably happy in their soft concrete car-port I don't suppose it would be tooo bad.

One could extend this to humans, of course, whether modern or ancient. Neither would be kept in a zoo, of course, but for a thinking species adaptation would probably not be too difficult. Of course, it goes without saying that you'd have to have some acceptable reason for cloning out CaveGirl: say if she were particularly hot, or something.

Geoff
 
About the problem of needing undamaged DNA, if we know what undamaged DNA should be, even without having a sample, could we create one in the future? Like some sort of artificial virus inserting the DNA like the T4 does to bacteria, and then using enzymes to remove the existing DNA.
 
Even if you had a complete map of a mammoth genome it wouldnt do you any good, information is carried by DNA in two ways: Both in the DNA lettering and in its topology or the way it's folded via methylization, this is something we have only very recently come to understand and it was a hell of a shock.

So as HR stated above you need a pristine nucleus to clone a mammoth at our present technology, postulating a more advanced technology you would need a DNA readout and a perfect record of what portions of the DNA strand were methylized as well as a means to turn all your information into a nucleus.

Probably not going to happen for a long while
 
I wonder if the methylation might be less sensitive to functional specificity than sequence variation? That is, if we got it and/or histone structure from a related (again, elephants - presumably where there's concordance between the African and Indian varieties) I wonder if that would be acceptable? What kind of differences are we talking about, morphologically, between mammoths and elephants. Fur, a bit bigger, maybe? 10k years, no? On that short a time frame, and with the long generation intervals for pachyderms, there might be relatively little sequence/structural variation between them and we might be looking at a variant of the dog/wolf scenario. In that case, "mammothness" might amount to nothing more than frequency changes in particular functional allelic variants, corresponding to a nearly Fisherian/Wrightian system. None of those allelic variants would be extant now, but maybe one could build a mammoth fairly easily on an elephant genomic topology. Methylation could be assumed from elephants, or applied sequentially with knowledge of gene sequence (from elephants again, prob) function in a "hit or miss" system. Be interesting to try, anyway. That's all I'm saying.

Geoff
 
I doubt it, the wolf, coyote, jackal, and domestic dog (including the dingo) all have 78 chromosomes which lets them hybridize easily and can be considered one species (with BIG variability), the mammoth has two more chromosomes than the elephant and so is a totally different (if related) species, which would lead me to believe that you couldnt extrapolate information derived from an elephant to a mammoth.

On the other hand donkeys have 62 chromosomes and horses have 64 chromosomes and they can crossbreed into a mule (which is usually sterile)

But you're right, it would be damn interesting to try.

But then what do I know, I'm not a geniticist (or about to be one either)
 
Two more? That's interesting. Maybe they might just be fusions in the elephant. Hmm.

Geoff
 
Hercules Rockefeller said:
I too found the discussion very interesting. I noticed that the author has some impressive credentials - Ph.D. and professor emeritus at Northern Arizona University. :eek: But he is a paleontologist, not a geneticist. I have no doubt his article was very accurate and informative when it refers to the history of mammoths, and his ethical discussion about whether we should clone mammoths was valid and interesting. It's just that he left his area of expertise when he discussed whether we can clone mammoths.
Larry D. Agenbroad, Ph.D., is director of the Mammoth Site of Hot Springs, South Dakota and professor "emeritus" at Northern Arizona University. As "emeritus" of NAU he no longer is directly affiliated with NAU's very respectable Department of Biological Sciences in any way. I would appreciate it if you do not associate him with NAU. Nevertheless, I do see a remote possibility, in the future, where DNA cloning with Mammoths could be a possibilty.
 
Hercules Rockefeller said:
With current technology, the idea of cloning mammoths by nuclear transfer is entirely fiction. ....

Cloning by nuclear transfer involves transferring a donor nucleus into an enucleated ovum. At present, and for the foreseeable future, nuclear transfer requires pristine nuclei. Merely having an organism’s isolated DNA is not sufficient,

I 100% agree ;)
 
valich said:
I would appreciate it if you do not associate him with NAU.
Why would you appreciate that? Emeritus Professors frequently maintain teaching roles at their universities, but I have no idea if that is the case with this guy. Did you get your five degrees at NAU, or something? :bugeye:

valich said:
Nevertheless, I do see a remote possibility, in the future, where DNA cloning with Mammoths could be a possibilty.
"DNA cloning with mammoths" is a reality in the present.
 
Here's my two cents worth.

Way back in 1980, I filed a Patent Disclosure with the US Patent and Trademark Office for cloning of a Wooly Mammoth. Never perfected it as an actual patent, however, due to the complexities, etc., and my belief that it would not happen during my lifetime. It envisioned extracting a nucleus from a frozen carcass, inserted into an elephant egg, as one possible method. Anyone who wants to try it, please contact me for a release of my cloud on patent rights!

The difficulties are tremendous, but in theory a complete set of DNA could be obtained by using many sets from several Mammoths, and finding the appropriate overlaps to 'clean-up' the degradations. However, how that task would be performed is not yet known, and indeed, the 'structure' of the DNA, within the chromosomes, would have to be exactly replicated as well.

Degradation occurs for a number of reasons. One I've not seen cited in the scientific literature previously, but which I reasoned exists, is the degradation due to radiation exposure from C-14, U-238, U-235, and other long-lived radioisotopes that are naturally occuring and present in living cells.

People and other living organisms receive on the order of about 10+ milliRads/year of radiation exposure from such naturally occuring radioisotopes. A frozen carcass (Mammoth), after 10,000 years, would receive on the order of 100+ Rads, sufficient to degrade the DNA substantially. This would need to be repaired, as discussed above. Other types of degradation (chemical, spontaneous bond-breakage, etc.) likely also occur, leaving the DNA very fragmented after 10,000 years at just a few degrees below zero C, way hotter than liquid Nitrogen. Now there's a task for our future biologists!

Walter L. Wagner (Dr.)
 
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