Is a length contraction just a visual thing?

Consider 3 power stations in a equilateral triangle A,B,C where the sides are all 750 miles ( a quarter wavelength at 60Hz). Start A and sync B to it. Now sync C to B. Now consider connecting C to A ... before doing this note that when the voltage from A is + 11,000 volts the voltage on the line from C is 0 volts. Would you connect them or not?

The OP hinges on clock synchronisation - at least how to do it and if possible why.
 
Consider 3 power stations in a equilateral triangle A,B,C where the sides are all 750 miles ( a quarter wavelength at 60Hz). Start A and sync B to it. Now sync C to B. Now consider connecting C to A ... before doing this note that when the voltage from A is + 11,000 volts the voltage on the line from C is 0 volts. Would you connect them or not?

The OP hinges on clock synchronisation - at least how to do it and if possible why.
:) The OP hinges on SFA.
Length contraction and time dilation are both evidenced by experiments as you have been shown and informed.
SR and GR both stand as unchallenged at this time, and certainly will never be invalidated by any Tom, Dick, and Harry, on any run of the mill science forum.
 
That was either an appeal to authority or you actually know how to sychronise clocks - I don't know enough about you to say. Let's give Alice a clock which we'll call Alice's clock (and why not?). We give clocks to Tom, Dick and Harry and send them off for several miles in different directions. First Tom syncs his clock to ALice's, then Dick syncs his clock to Tom's and then Harry syncs his clock to Dick's. They do it in such a way that when they meet Alice all their clocks show exactly the same time. How do they do it? And even better why does it work?
 
Yes but it is gravity, not altitude. To really be in the same inertial frame they must be in the same gravitational field. This requirement is not usually stated, so I did not.
True enough! You are getting the picture.

Now let's try one other thought experiment that your given example suggests to put the last two simultaneously driven nails in Minkowski's coffin.

Imagine two light cones for two quantum entangled paired electron spin flip EVENTS separated by a distance (light travel time) on the order of Angstroms. Try to draw light cones for these entangled events.

Why is your light "cone" still shaped like cone? The events we are talking about REALLY ARE simultaneous, and they are not separated by light travel time at all. So forget the cones, or the "quadratic" nature of different aspects of spacetime represented by them. Your cones become disks, the intervals separating the two events becomes identically zero and the disks that represent the instant the event(s) occur are right on top of each other, as though it were possible for two fermions to occupy the same space at the same time. This would be a clear impossibility in Minkowski's version of spacetime, wouldn't it?

Time dilation does not exist in the above example because time itself does not exist as far as entanglement is concerned. THAT's the real definition of simultaneity which relativity cannot even address because the math and expressions containing the speed of light in a vacuum no longer apply to the situation.

Is time dilation / length contraction a real effect (the question posed by this thread) for bulk matter/energy propagation? Of course it is. This much doesn't change. But the concept of simultaneity, except for quantum entanglement, has to go, along with those light cones, and any hope of synchronizing clocks to an absolute time based on space that is light travel time in every direction, and where the rate at which time passes is different everywhere.
 
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Imagine two light cones for two quantum entangled paired electron spin flip EVENTS separated by a distance (light travel time) on the order of Angstroms. Try to draw light cones for these entangled events.
There is absolutely no problem in this. If we know when the events happen in one system of coordinates, then we know when they happen in every system. The light cones are, up to standard translation, the same in every system.
Why is your light "cone" still shaped like cone? The events we are talking about REALLY ARE simultaneous, and they are not separated by light travel time at all.
Note what danshawen is telling us: "EVENTS separated by a distance (light travel time)" and " they are not separated by light travel time at all". danshawen draws his conclusions by first assuming a contradiction.

This fantasy physics at least, I hope, sates his anger for a while.
 
That was either an appeal to authority or you actually know how to sychronise clocks - I don't know enough about you to say. Let's give Alice a clock which we'll call Alice's clock (and why not?). We give clocks to Tom, Dick and Harry and send them off for several miles in different directions. First Tom syncs his clock to ALice's, then Dick syncs his clock to Tom's and then Harry syncs his clock to Dick's. They do it in such a way that when they meet Alice all their clocks show exactly the same time. How do they do it? And even better why does it work?
Whatever....
Again I say with utmost certainty, length contraction and time dilation are both evidenced by experiments as you have been shown and informed many times.
SR and GR both stand as unchallenged at this time, and certainly will never be invalidated by any Tom, Dick, and Harry, on any run of the mill science forum, by any supposed fabricated scenario.
Effects of both of course are unoticable at sub relativistic speeds, and explains why pre-Einstein, the intuitive belief was that space and time were apparently constant or invariable.
Then the great man came along [along with a few other great men] and showed that as we approach relativistic speeds and large enough masses, that space and time are not constant and invariable. In fact they are both intuitively variable and flexible, depending on one's frames of references.
These are facts due to the finite speed of light and curved spacetime.
 
Of the Lorentz transformation there is a particular thing mentioned of length contraction, is this contraction just from a visual perspective?
Length contraction and time dilation is brought about by relativistic quantities, and depended on the FoR, the finite speed of light, and curved spacetime.
Whatever any individual measures in his or her frame, is as valid and as true as any other measurement by anyone else in another frame.
There is absolutely no argument about that, except of course by the fabricated scenarios of cranks/alternative/pseudoscientific brigade on science forums such as this.
 
Length contraction and time dilation is brought about by relativistic quantities, and depended on the FoR, the finite speed of light, and curved spacetime.
Whatever any individual measures in his or her frame, is as valid and as true as any other measurement by anyone else in another frame.
There is absolutely no argument about that, except of course by the fabricated scenarios of cranks/alternative/pseudoscientific brigade on science forums such as this.

To the Universe ; as a whole ; the length doesn't contract
 
To the Universe ; as a whole ; the length doesn't contract
You've been caught out once today already river...glutton for punishment? :rolleyes:
Now please read again, slowly and let it sink in.......
Length contraction and time dilation is brought about by relativistic quantities, and depended on the FoR, the finite speed of light, and curved spacetime.
Whatever any individual measures in his or her frame, is as valid and as true as any other measurement by anyone else in another frame.
There is absolutely no argument about that, except of course by the fabricated scenarios of cranks/alternative/pseudoscientific brigade on science forums such as this.
 
Do you know what a "beat frequency" is? A "beat frequency" is what you get whenever you try to synchronize two free running oscillators. It is an indication that there is still a tiny error between them, and if they synchronize at all, it never happens for more than an instant, or in the case of "phase locked" oscillators, within a certain error amount over a given time interval, and only in a particular location at a particular time, to a single observer.
It's simpler than that. A beat frequency occurs whenever two waves of slightly different frequency add together.

You can phase lock oscillators that are separated in time, and or space, but it is meaningless to specify simultanaeity without an acceptable amount of error and/ or a specified time interval (which, as I have explained, appears to be an instant with respect to a particular location, at a particular time).
Again, it's much simpler than you make out. Two events are simultaneous in a particular frame of reference if their time coordinates are the same. That's all there is to it.

The same mathematical bozos who would have us believe that an origin of a coordinate system is something that can be meaningfully specified at some precise location in inertialess relativistic space agreed upon by more than one frame of reference are the same people who think they understand what simultanaeity is. They don't.
I can set up a coordinate system right here in my room. I might choose, for example, to designate the origin of my coordinate system as the front left-hand corner of my desk. If I want to, I could add an origin for the time coordinate to the definition (e.g. time zero occurs at the front left-hand corner of my desk at 8 pm on 25 December, 2016).

I don't think your idea of "inertialess relativistic space" is required or important to defining a coordinate system.

Oh, and my desk-based coordinate system can be agreed upon by as many observers in as many frames of reference as you like.

The task of relativity is to translate my (arbitrary) coordinates into any other set of coordinates that any other observer would care to set up.

You can't do relativity with only one observer, or only a single mathematical expression to describe what is observed.
Relativity is about moving from one reference frame to another. If by "observer" you mean "reference frame", then you are correct. We don't need relativity until we have more than one reference frame.

I don't know what "single mathematical expression" you might be thinking of.

Simultanaeity always requires at least two observers...
No. Simultaneity is defined in a single reference frame. In fact, I gave the definition earlier in this post.

...and there is no guarantee that time dilation is exactly the same at both locations.
Time dilation of what?, I wonder...
 
You've been caught out once today already river...glutton for punishment? :rolleyes:
Now please read again, slowly and let it sink in.......
Length contraction and time dilation is brought about by relativistic quantities, and depended on the FoR, the finite speed of light, and curved spacetime.
Whatever any individual measures in his or her frame, is as valid and as true as any other measurement by anyone else in another frame.
There is absolutely no argument about that, except of course by the fabricated scenarios of cranks/alternative/pseudoscientific brigade on science forums such as this.
I am glad you mentioned the word fabricated it reminded me on about the fabric of space-time, are we defining the fabric of space-time is light? It is the length of light that contracts or expands by relativistic motion of body to another body.
 
I am glad you mentioned the word fabricated it reminded me on about the fabric of space-time, are we defining the fabric of space-time is light? It is the length of light that contracts or expands by relativistic motion of body to another body.
Although spacetime is real, it is not a fabric despite the popular terminology: The term is somewhat of an analogy.
The other utter confused crap you posted defining the fabric of spacetime as light is really weird. Light is part of the EMS and travels in spacetime, following geodesic paths. That is also fact.
 
Although spacetime is real, it is not a fabric despite the popular terminology: The term is somewhat of an analogy.
The other utter confused crap you posted defining the fabric of spacetime as light is really weird. Light is part of the EMS and travels in spacetime, following geodesic paths. That is also fact.
And the fact is as seen in this thread several times, length contraction and time dilation/time contraction is of light and not of space, we do not observe space reflecting light, there is no red shift of the actual space, that is object related, space has no aether, no physical solidity, that only leaves light to be space-time surely?

Space-time not really being the real space-time that is ''behind'' the space-time?
 
And the fact is as seen in this thread several times, length contraction and time dilation/time contraction is of light and not of space, we do not observe space reflecting light, there is no red shift of the actual space, that is object related, space has no aether, no physical solidity, that only leaves light to be space-time surely?

Space-time not really being the real space-time that is ''behind'' the space-time?
No, it is not of light....It occurs because of the finite speed of light, at least directly applied to time dilation.
Redshift/blueshift, cosmological redshift/blueshift that is, occurs because of intervening spacetime expanding.
Gravitational redshift/blueshift occurs because light is climbing or falling into spacetime curvature gravitational wells:
Doppler redshift/blueshift occurs because objects are moving towards or away from a source.
 
No, it is not of light....It occurs because of the finite speed of light, at least directly applied to time dilation.
of light....It occurs because of the finite speed of light, of light was saying the same thing in brief , do you not understand things in breif?
Redshift/blueshift, cosmological redshift/blueshift that is, occurs because of intervening spacetime expanding.

No, you are clearly wrong and do not understand, redshift is caused by the length between a point source and light source, extending .

Gravitational redshift/blueshift occurs because light is climbing or falling into spacetime curvature gravitational wells:

No, the light is the space-time you refer to, curving, contracting and stretching. There is no redshift of space, space reflects no light. Space is not expanding.


Doppler redshift/blueshift occurs because objects are moving towards or away from a source.

At the near speed of light, you was almost correct.
 
It's simpler than that. A beat frequency occurs whenever two waves of slightly different frequency add together.


Again, it's much simpler than you make out. Two events are simultaneous in a particular frame of reference if their time coordinates are the same. That's all there is to it.


I can set up a coordinate system right here in my room. I might choose, for example, to designate the origin of my coordinate system as the front left-hand corner of my desk. If I want to, I could add an origin for the time coordinate to the definition (e.g. time zero occurs at the front left-hand corner of my desk at 8 pm on 25 December, 2016).

I don't think your idea of "inertialess relativistic space" is required or important to defining a coordinate system.

Oh, and my desk-based coordinate system can be agreed upon by as many observers in as many frames of reference as you like.

The task of relativity is to translate my (arbitrary) coordinates into any other set of coordinates that any other observer would care to set up.


Relativity is about moving from one reference frame to another. If by "observer" you mean "reference frame", then you are correct. We don't need relativity until we have more than one reference frame.

I don't know what "single mathematical expression" you might be thinking of.


No. Simultaneity is defined in a single reference frame. In fact, I gave the definition earlier in this post.


Time dilation of what?, I wonder...
Time dilation of one region of inertialess, relativistic, non-Euclidean space 'light travel time' relative to any other measure of the rates of energy transfer events in a different time dilation zone of the same, or of a different bound or unbound energy wave of bulk energy propagation, of course. Imagine what we call 'space' as beads of rotationally bound energy separated from each other by linear light travel time. No other description of space is really needed then, is it? The speed of light in a vacuum adequately describes energy transfer events in both (rotational and linear) domains, and the continuous interactions between the two are determined by the substrate quantum field. This would include entanglement, the arrow of time, the speed of light for bulk boun or unbound energy propagation, and its relationship to 'at rest' for bound energy. And any fixed measure of 'space' or coordinate systems not related to simple light travel time would be a ludicrous waste of mathematical effort.

Not so simple, trying to be consistent in the description of events in such a universe. But Minkowski's description was far worse. For people like him, his precious quadratics and faux simultanaeity were only a mathematical refuge from struggling with descriptions of physical reality, the way his lesser student Einstein did. Hilbert was always Minkowski's favorite son.

I have so far only defined energy in mathematical terms, using Einstein and Planck's relations. Kinetic energy is an excitation of a quantum field. Potential energy is more complex and always, always involves bound energy, which makes the situation considerably more complex in terms of descriptive power.

As for your example of a coordinate system in a room, every atom of every solid, liquid, gas, or plasma in that room is riding on a planet, moon, star, or spacecraft moving in terms of energy exchange events in an inertialess, non-Euclidean quantum field which is isotopic in every direction outside the influence of a gravitational field, which is another type of energy transfer event based on quantum spin of that field. The atomic and fundamental particle structures of everything in that room including yourself are dynamic; not static, and not Euclideann. There are places where your coordinate system is appropriate to apply and places where it is not. But it will definitely not serve very well to describe or to understand either the physical natures nor mechanisms underlying inertia nor gravity.
 
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Time dilation of one region of inertialess, relativistic, non-Euclidean space 'light travel time' relative to any other measure of the rates of energy transfer events in a different time dilation zone of the same, or of a different bound or unbound energy wave of bulk energy propagation, of course.
A beautiful piece of word salad. Despite its length, not a sentence in English; no subject, no object, no verbs at all.
Not so simple, trying to be consistent in the description of events in such a universe. But Minkowski's description was far worse. For people like him, his precious quadratics were only a mathematical refuge from descriptions of physical reality.
A great example of angry posting. Despite all the applications of Minkowski spacetime and the thousands of papers that successfully use it to advance science, danshawen prefers his anger and will continue to ignore any evidence.

As for your example of a coordinate system in a room, every atom of every solid, liquid, gas, or plasma in that room is riding on a planet, moon, star, or spacecraft moving in terms of energy exchange events in an inertialess, non-Euclidean quantum field which is isotopic in every direction outside the influence of a gravitational field, which is another type of energy transfer event based on quantum spin of that field.
I don't think that the poster knows what "isotopic" means. Certainly, "isotropic" is not the correct word, since that would definitely make the sentence false. However, it is not clear what homeomorphism that the poster means to be isotopic.
 
And the fact is as seen in this thread several times, length contraction and time dilation/time contraction is of light and not of space,
Space-time not really being the real space-time that is ''behind'' the space-time?
Please stop posting this pseudoscience in the science section. I thought you had been warned.

Just letting you know; post reported.
 
Please stop posting this pseudoscience in the science section. I thought you had been warned.

Just letting you know; post reported.
You clearly do not know how light has to reflect of an object and into your eyes to see that object, what do you propose of space reflects light to show a red shift ?

We are in agreement space is not opaque.

Maybe one of the other members can clear this disagreement of understanding up?
 
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