Is 1 Timothy 4:1-3 a prophecy?

garbonzo

Registered Senior Member
Okay, so I was doing some Bible research on the dead sea scrolls. Reading 1 Timothy 4:1-3 it seems to talk about Gnosticism, but it is talking about it happening in the future: "that in later periods of time"

Obviously, we can't know when 1 Tim. was written, so I guess this means that the writer wanted to make it look like a prophecy, when actuality it was written in the latter 1st century, since Gnosticism was developing primarily in the latter 1st century?

I would like atheist's view on this matter? (I am an open-minded atheist)
 
1 Timothy 4
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Well the catholic church forbids it's clergy from marrying and during lent forbids its members from eating meat on Fridays.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
1 Timothy 4
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Well the catholic church forbids it's clergy from marrying and during lent forbids its members from eating meat on Fridays.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

So is it a prophecy against Catholics? :bugeye: Does this mean anything in regards to Bible Authenticity? In the religion I used to be in, they called Catholics Babylon the Great (from Revelation) which would be destroyed in the end times....
 
So is it a prophecy against Catholics? :bugeye: Does this mean anything in regards to Bible Authenticity? In the religion I used to be in, they called Catholics Babylon the Great (from Revelation) which would be destroyed in the end times....

Well the catholic religion did fulfill the prophecy. But there may be other Abrahamic faiths that partly fulfill the prophecy today but may add the second part during the end times. Both islam and Judaism ban the eating of some meats. But as far as i know they have not yet banned people from marrying. Maybe there is a religious Jew or muslim out there would can fill us in.

A great proportion of no catholic denominations have pointed to the roman catholic church as The fulfillment of the Harlot of Babylon. Although recently (in the last two generations) there has been a movement in a number of these denominations heading towards reunification with rome via the ecumenical movement. I have moved away from the belief that she is the mother of harlots, main Harlot. I am coming to believe she is one of the daughters of the harlot.

I am starting to believe the actual Harlot is older than the catholic church, I am looking more towards Jerusalem now and towards tulmud centered judaism, which is distinct from Torah based Judaism.

Where you once a member of the jehovahs witnesses? Just curious. I visit a forum where most of the topics are either posted by them or about them.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Well the catholic religion did fulfill the prophecy. But there may be other Abrahamic faiths that partly fulfill the prophecy today but may add the second part during the end times. Both islam and Judaism ban the eating of some meats. But as far as i know they have not yet banned people from marrying. Maybe there is a religious Jew or muslim out there would can fill us in.

A great proportion of no catholic denominations have pointed to the roman catholic church as The fulfillment of the Harlot of Babylon. Although recently (in the last two generations) there has been a movement in a number of these denominations heading towards reunification with rome via the ecumenical movement. I have moved away from the belief that she is the mother of harlots, main Harlot. I am coming to believe she is one of the daughters of the harlot.

I am starting to believe the actual Harlot is older than the catholic church, I am looking more towards Jerusalem now and towards tulmud centered judaism, which is distinct from Torah based Judaism.

Where you once a member of the jehovahs witnesses? Just curious. I visit a forum where most of the topics are either posted by them or about them.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Yeah, I talked with you before on my A Challenge To Atheists thread, which ultimately lead me to be an atheist.
 
Yeah, I talked with you before on my A Challenge To Atheists thread, which ultimately lead me to be an atheist.


Do you have to belong to one or the other , I believe there is a gray area which is the searching area . The atheist is a layer , he imply s he know every thing and some theist over interpret things
 
Do you have to belong to one or the other , I believe there is a gray area which is the searching area . The atheist is a layer , he imply s he know every thing and some theist over interpret things
Actually, being an Atheist (non-belief in a god) is just admitting that you don't know.
 
On this forum the definitions of Agnostic and atheist are often confused. A lot of people want to be called atheist cause it sounds more definite but they will not state definitely that God does not exist and not being sure if God exists or does not exists is what an agnostic is. But admitting to being an agnostic sounds all wishy washy. So we got the clayton Agnostics who want to hang out with the tuff atheists thing happening.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Actually, being an Atheist (non-belief in a god) is just admitting that you don't know.

What, no? Atheisim is litteraly the faith that God does NOT exist. Agnosticsm is the faith that we can't know of God, until God makes himself known. Even then, some might not understand.
 
On this forum the definitions of Agnostic and atheist are often confused. A lot of people want to be called atheist cause it sounds more definite but they will not state definitely that God does not exist and not being sure if God exists or does not exists is what an agnostic is. But admitting to being an agnostic sounds all wishy washy. So we got the clayton Agnostics who want to hang out with the tuff atheists thing happening.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

You are agnostic. Admit it.
 
Ahhh, I didn't know what agnostic meant. I thought it was the belief in God, but not in religion. But, I see now that it means "I don't know." So, I am an agnostic.
 
Are you making a Joke? If your serious then your credibility is going down very fast.

I Know God exists, and He is the God of Abraham, YAVEH.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar, I want picture, and authenticity or bull shit. I talk to the Father every day, the Son, and the devil too. You can not know of God, its all part of the plan. Renounce your knowledge in God, you only have faith, I know this to be true. If you do not show me your evidence on God in your next post, renounce your "knowledge" of God or you are a liar.
 
Adstar, I want picture, and authenticity or bull shit. I talk to the Father every day, the Son, and the devil too. You can not know of God, its all part of the plan. Renounce your knowledge in God, you only have faith, I know this to be true. If you do not show me your evidence on God in your next post, renounce your "knowledge" of God or you are a liar.

There is no evidence i can show you. If there was everyone on earth would become Christian.

I said i Know God exists. Not that i can prove God exists. God will do that to those who reject Him at the final judgement.

I have been shown the future in perfect detail. YAVEH has revealed many things to me in Dreams. Do not doubt that every moment in the future you and i will experience is already known by God.

God can provide personal proof of His existence to whom so ever He wills to give it.

I doubt very much you talk to God. You sound like you talk to familiar spirits. If so then you have been given over to deception to be used.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
What, no? Atheisim is litteraly the faith that God does NOT exist. Agnosticsm is the faith that we can't know of God, until God makes himself known. Even then, some might not understand.
:rolleyes:
Atheism is a lack of belief in God, not necessarily belief in the non-existence of God. It is not a "faith" if it is merely a lack of the theistic belief.

Agnosticism is either belief that God is unknowable (often referred to as strong agnosticism), or merely that one does not have knowledge of God (often referred to as weak agnosticism).

garbonzo said:
Ahhh, I didn't know what agnostic meant. I thought it was the belief in God, but not in religion. But, I see now that it means "I don't know." So, I am an agnostic.
If you say "I don't know," then likely you are agnostic on the matter.
But you can also be theist or atheist... if you are asked "do you hold the belief that God exists?" and you say "Yes" then you are a theist, even if you think God is unknowable... you would be an agnostic theist.
If your answer to the question is "No" then you would be an agnostic atheist, which is a fairly common position among atheists.
 
In Timothy, the death and resurrection of Christ signaled a new POV in religion. The death was to bring forth the comforter or the Holy Spirit, which would teach one all truth.

Paul discusses this transition as the death of the outer man or Children of the Bond Woman, and the formation of the inner man or children of the Promise. The outward expressions of law and religion ritual were obsolete or connected to the children of the bondwoman.

The children of the promise would find truth from the inside. This extended the prophet phenomena to all the children. The inner man and holy spirit meant knowledge of truth comes from within. There was a certain common feeling of love, among the faithful, but with many manifestations of the spirit or inner voice, as part of the whole.

The old way was book, prophet and priests teaching the herd. The way of the inner man was each person was now a conduit of the one spirit. You were no longer a herd animal but a unique entity. But most people could not get used to this but preferred to be part of a herd and be told what to think; old traditions.

One practical problem with this new inner voice POV, is not all spontaneous creativity was from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was defined as the spirit of truth and was manifest with the feeling of love, peace, giving, etc. There was also creativity connected to the more base or earthy human emotions like greed, power, lust, etc, This creativity were considered doctrines of Demons. The way you could tell the difference was the emotions it would induce. The fire and brimstone created fear, so this was not of the spirit, except in an obsolete or retro way. This was a good way to herd the children of the bondwoman.

When the Catholic church forms, the inner voice is played down, because although there were many positive manifestation of creativity, there was much more earthy creativity. The net did not add up. The church used a more logical and procedural method to filter and incorporate bits and pieces.

But at the time of Timothy, the inner voice of creativity was open. Not all those so gifted created ideas in ways that were progressive for the faith, but rather also used this to create leverage over individuals. Prohibitions were retro but were still a useful way to control people for power and prestige.

For example politicians tell people lies that they don't have to keep. Although people know this, they will continue to follow the lie. The truth is often harder to accept. The result at the time of Timothy was the true faith was getting swallowed by the creativity of demons. People preferred strong and tough to soft and gentile so the lie was easier to accept. The church got rid of the open creativity of the inner spirit and instituted more of a screening process.
 
Reading 1 Timothy 4:1-3 it seems to talk about Gnosticism, but it is talking about it happening in the future: "that in later periods of time"

The bible really isn't my thing, but I'd question whether the text is talking about gnosticism.

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer

That sounds to me like it's probably referring to the Jewish religious law regulating who observant Jews could marry and what kind of foods they could eat. There might have been some fear that the early Christians would eventually lose their distinctiveness and return to practicing more conventional Judaism.
 
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