Iran trys to get holland to ban dutch mp's film about the "violence provoking koran"

[Asguard]

iceaura there is a HUGE difference between refering to Muhamid as a terrioust and drawing a cartoon showing for instance Kevin rudd as Mr sheen, Tony Abott as big ears, or John Howard as a massive set of eyebrows

Why is that?

Because no one is going to be offended by this, politions EXPECT cartoons about themselves. Thats something that comes with the office. However muslims find these sort of cartoons about there profit to be offencive. What does that say about someone who publishes them? That he is an evil little man who likes to a) insult people and b) get people killed. There ARE laws about inciting religious hatred, there arnt any laws about ridiculing pollies (actually they act like children by themselves)

 

[iceaura]

Because no one is going to be offended by this, politions EXPECT cartoons about themselves. Thats something that comes with the office. However muslims find these sort of cartoons about there profit to be offencive.

So? That comes with the territory of having a Prophet.

As I said, if you want to be able to criticise, ridicule, and disrespect the Muslim religion - as you can all other religious and political powers, as the Muslims can you and your pet beliefs whatever they may be, for the very good reason that not being able to do so endangers, that freedom and liberty depend on it - you are going to have to learn how to deal with offended Muslims.

The West is on a learning curve. Is fundie Islam on a learning curve ?

 

[Repo Man]

How is this for criticism of a prophet; in my opinion, anyone who claims that god talks to them is either insane, or lying with the motive of manipulating people. I view that as a statement of fact, but I'm sure many would consider that a mortal insult if applied to their particular brand of dogma.

 

[Asguard]

you honestly think that?

There was an artist that wanted to exsibit a display that consited of christan crosses, in a bucket that he had pissed on. The protests against it rivled those against work choices (sorry i dont have a comparitive american protest to use as an example). As far as i know following the protests the exibition was removed because it could be "offencive" to christans. With this in mind why should these cartoons have been alowed?

BTW one principle of free speech is using it responcably with regard to conciquences of what you say. It is not a licence to insult people. You cant shout fire in a cinima

Further more there are laws protecting people from things which are blatant lies. I can stand next to you screaming to everyone who walks past that your a child rapist. Of course this is criminal defimation and i will land myself in a cell if i do. In order to make a statment you have to be able to back it up. I doubt you could back up The prophet being a suicide bomber

 

[Repo Man]

And, for some balance:

 

[Michael]

If however i went on to say that this means all priests are pedifiles and all high level clergy agree with there actions that would be defimation.

You apparently missed that South Park episode! In it ALL Catholics Priests were child molesters and they were complaining to the Pope (and the Great She Spider) that children were running to the media! Oh Man, how-a are we-a gonna molest da-Childrena if dey keep-a runnin to da media-a...

 

[Michael]

Repo Man,

Haaa! Those sheep - too funny!

 

[Asguard]

i saw most of that eposode but i do try not to take my ethics from south park. Actually i try not to take my ethics from the US at all because on ethics and human rights the US HAS no high ground.

 

[Repo Man]

Repo Man,

Haaa! Those sheep - too funny!

From http://www.b3ta.com/ a couple of years ago.

 

[Norsefire]

Free speech and hate speech are two different things.

 

[Bells]

Free speech and hate speech are two different things.

So let me see if I have this correctly.

A movie is made depicting Muslims as being violent, hateful, images of the Koran being burned and desecrated, etc. Muslims are concerned that such a movie depicts them in a bad light and is insulting to their beliefs. So to counter this movie and to attempt to educate the population at large who may be influenced by this movie, Muslims rampage through the streets, destroying property and threatening people's lives.

Hmmmm..

You are offended that people may perceive Muslims as being violent, etc. So you react violently to it? And then you say 'it's not their fault they reacted violently to it.. they are angry, blah blah blah'.. Can you see where I am going with this?

I agree, there is no need to make such movies. There is no need to urinate on the religious beliefs of other people. But then I think to myself, does this movie, or any other art display, cartoon, photograph, etc, really deserve such a violent reaction? It's just a bloody movie. If you don't want people to have incorrect notions and beliefs about your religion, you should not live up to the stupid expectations in the damn movie and then cry foul when you are judged that way. That is exactly what the rioters have done on each occasion.

I mean seriously, is there something wrong with protesting peacefully? You don't get your point across when you set things on fire and threaten to kill people. On the contrary, you end up looking like a criminal because you are acting like one. Saying "I was angry and was provoked by a movie" does not cut it. Again, I reiterate.. IT'S A BLOODY MOVIE! If someone enters your home and harms you and/or your family, feeling rage and anger to the point where you are led to violence against the perpetrator would be understandable. But a movie? Can you not even see just how far fetched that is? You really think there is some justification in burning things , threatening to harm and kill people because of a movie? A MOVIE?

My two year old reacts better at things that make him angry.. Even when he gets really angry, he does not go on a rampage through the house trying to destroy things. He yells, throws his body on the floor and sometimes even stomps his feet. He, a 2 year old, has better anger management than the adults and teenagers committing the acts of vandalism.

So instead of proving the movie wrong. The rioters have proven it correct.

 

[iceaura]

I doubt you could back up The prophet being a suicide bomber

I could hand you dozens of suicide bombers inspired by the Prophet of Islam - explicitly and in their own words, on video tape.

As far as i know following the protests the exibition was removed because it could be "offencive" to christans. With this in mind why should these cartoons have been alowed?

The exhibit should have been allowed. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Further more there are laws protecting people from things which are blatant lies. I can stand next to you screaming to everyone who walks past that your a child rapist.

So there's your entre: sue for libel. See if you can prove in court the filmmaker lied about somebody.

Free speech and hate speech are two different things.

Neither one justifies riot and murder. Neither one is identified by whether or not someone is offended.

 

[Asguard]

Did i once say they were right for there reaction?

No, but nither do i think the film producer is right for making them. Oh and you dont have to wait for the film to be widly distributed before taking action. Iran has asked the goverment to ban it, if it inherently false that is a good reason for the goverment to agree to there request

 

[iceaura]

Iran has asked the goverment to ban it, if it inherently false that is a good reason for the goverment to agree to there request

Which government official do you think should decide whether it is "inherently false". The Minister of Truth ?

 

[Asguard]

how about the statitory autority that ALREADY rates movies?

You do realise that there is a little guy sitting in a room that puts those PG's, and M's on movies. What happens if they refuse to give a movie (or a book, a computer game ect) one of ratings? Its banned from the country

 

[Bells]

Did i once say they were right for there reaction?

No, but nither do i think the film producer is right for making them. Oh and you dont have to wait for the film to be widly distributed before taking action. Iran has asked the goverment to ban it, if it inherently false that is a good reason for the goverment to agree to there request

If that is the case, then the majority of movies should not be made. People protested when Harry Potter was released, both in print and on the big screen, because it was deemed to promote witchcraft and thus, offensive to a large group of people.

If the contents of that movie is false, rioting, looting and threatening to kill people and actually killing people only proves whatever the movie was trying to say. Muslims could have taken the high ground with this movie. Proven it false by not reacting violently to it. Instead they chose to do just what the director intended.

Do you really think Hirsi Ali deserves to be persecuted and having to have live in hiding with 24/7 security because of the short film she wrote about Islam and its treatment of women? Both she and Van Gogh received death threats for having dared to make 'Submission'. Van Gogh ultimately payed for it with his life and she has gone into hiding with round the clock security.

Again.. it's a movie people! A MOVIE! Resorting to violence and killing because of a movie is absolutely vile. People who reacting so violently to things like movies, books, art, cartoons, etc, belong in jail and not roaming the streets posing a threat to innocent people going about their daily lives.

 

[Asguard]

bells there is a difference between fiction and something that claimes to be the truth. You know that

edit to add: Yes i know there was alot of complaint from the right wingers about harry potter and the Di Vinci code and yes the christian nutters lost

However do you think that the display at the Melbourne art center should have been pulled?

 

[Bells]

bells there is a difference between fiction and something that claimes to be the truth. You know that

edit to add: Yes i know there was alot of complaint from the right wingers about harry potter and the Di Vinci code and yes the christian nutters lost

However do you think that the display at the Melbourne art center should have been pulled?

If it is a work of fiction, then treat it as such, with the disdain they think it deserves. Protesting violently against a movie, no matter how obscene it is in desecrating their holy text and stating Muslims are violent, does nothing to further their cause. I disagree that Wildes made the movie at all. I really don't think he has served anyone well by desecrating their holy text. And yes, it was done specifically to incite the response he is now getting. But Muslims could have denied him that, proven to him just how wrong he and his movie actually is by protesting peacefully. Instead, they decided to do exactly what he wanted them to do and frankly, they are idiots for having reacted so violently.

I mean honestly, I have asked this several times now and no one has been able to give me an answer... Is there something wrong with protesting peacefully? I can assure you, had they reacted peacefully, Wildes would have ended up looking like the bully and the racist twit actually he is. Now he will be seen to be some sort of a hero.

As for the art display in Melbourne and elsewhere. No, I do not think it should have been pulled. If people were offended by it, they could have just stayed home.

 

[vincent]

If it is a work of fiction, then treat it as such, with the disdain they think it deserves. Protesting violently against a movie, no matter how obscene it is in desecrating their holy text and stating Muslims are violent, does nothing to further their cause. I disagree that Wildes made the movie at all. I really don't think he has served anyone well by desecrating their holy text. And yes, it was done specifically to incite the response he is now getting. But Muslims could have denied him that, proven to him just how wrong he and his movie actually is by protesting peacefully. Instead, they decided to do exactly what he wanted them to do and frankly, they are idiots for having reacted so violently.

I mean honestly, I have asked this several times now and no one has been able to give me an answer... Is there something wrong with protesting peacefully? I can assure you, had they reacted peacefully, Wildes would have ended up looking like the bully and the racist twit actually he is. Now he will be seen to be some sort of a hero.

As for the art display in Melbourne and elsewhere. No, I do not think it should have been pulled. If people were offended by it, they could have just stayed home.

Yes you are totally right, protesting peacefully would have got them respect, my respect for sure, when i see anti bush demonstrators smashing up mcdonalds etc, these people gain no respect, all i see is violent left wing fanatics, who believe its there way or no way, any type of fanatics be they muslim, right wing or left wing if they need to use violence or promote violence through there placards, these people have lost the argument totally, people listen to peaceful demonstrations, sometimes it will even eventually change foreign policy, but people will be against violent demo's & will sometimes even back bush even though they dont like him, just because the alternative is even more stupid, a bunch of left wing loonies smashing up small towns in switzerland just because the g8 or g7 of world leaders is holding there conference there under the protection of 8 foot hire barbed wire fences.

I dont know Bells this the second time in as many days i agree with you, either your taking your medicine every day now, or your laying off the booze i dont know which?

 

[(Q)]

I think there's a fine line between telling others what your religion is about, and having others insult and scrutinize it for you. When does freedom of speech become hate speech?

Apparently, this is a decision Muslims make whenever they decide they don't agree with something.

It's too bad that others insult and scrutinize your cult, but it is no reason to result to violence. Muslims make that decision themselves, too.