This is where I would say no cos my mother taught me to respect things, whether written or not, and not to hurt anyone.
Iran trys to get holland to ban dutch mp's film about the "violence provoking koran"
- Thread starter vincent
- Start date
This is where I would say no cos my mother taught me to respect things, whether written or not, and not to hurt anyone.
Imagine that, there are also people in the west who dislike/don't understand freedom of speech and expression! There are idiots here who would like to ban burning the US flag (but they've lost the fight every time so far). They would elevate the symbol over the freedom it represents. The fight against them is never ending. As accustomed as I am to fighting this idiocy on the homefront, do you somehow think I'm going to allow someone in another country to tell me whether or not I can publish cartoons making fun of some goofy religion?
Then don't allow them to, but as I said prepare for consequences.
just in case people missed it: http://sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1757960&postcount=200
Welcome to our society guys - get used to it. With the many many Muslims flocking here from the ME to our societies we must be doing something right!
As you well know, in our society we allow you to worship a God that many of us do not believe in (and the very thought of teaching children about this God... blaaaahhck we don't like it)! It's an insult for many of us to suggest there even is one God. But we allow you to do so anyway. We also allow you to teach your daughters to cover their entire bodies in a tent - all for the sake of your particular customs that you associate with your particular flavor of religious identity. We allow you to teach that Xianity is not a Universal Religion, that Jesus was not a Messiah and that somehow Xians got it all wrong, the Bible is flawed and hence inferior to your own Holy Book.
Welcome anyway.
Oh, by the by, while you're here - you will also have to accept that we allow people to criticize your religion. To say Mohammad smoke camel toe and the Qur'an is no better than toilet paper.
To me, monotheism is fascist.
To me, teaching that Mohammad was the Last Prophet is wrong - hey, what about the Baha'i'!
To me, teaching that the Qur'an is a perfect book is silly and even disrepectful because do so suggests all other Holy Books aren't.
But, I allow you to do teach those things don't I?
So, get used to seeing Piss Mohammad - - whether you like it or not. AND If you don't like it - move somewhere else. Simple huh? You may find Piss Christ terrible - so what? The guy was trying to make a point and to get you to question your reasons for beleif. That's what artists do. Like I said, 600 years ago to even suggest the King was not of God would find you without a head.
Well - some of us are living here in the now - not 600 years ago!
As you well know, in our society we allow you to worship a God that many of us do not believe in (and the very thought of teaching children about this God... blaaaahhck we don't like it)! It's an insult for many of us to suggest there even is one God. But we allow you to do so anyway. We also allow you to teach your daughters to cover their entire bodies in a tent - all for the sake of your particular customs that you associate with your particular flavor of religious identity. We allow you to teach that Xianity is not a Universal Religion, that Jesus was not a Messiah and that somehow Xians got it all wrong, the Bible is flawed and hence inferior to your own Holy Book.
Welcome anyway.
Oh, by the by, while you're here - you will also have to accept that we allow people to criticize your religion. To say Mohammad smoke camel toe and the Qur'an is no better than toilet paper.
To me, monotheism is fascist.
To me, teaching that Mohammad was the Last Prophet is wrong - hey, what about the Baha'i'!
To me, teaching that the Qur'an is a perfect book is silly and even disrepectful because do so suggests all other Holy Books aren't.
But, I allow you to do teach those things don't I?
So, get used to seeing Piss Mohammad - - whether you like it or not. AND If you don't like it - move somewhere else. Simple huh? You may find Piss Christ terrible - so what? The guy was trying to make a point and to get you to question your reasons for beleif. That's what artists do. Like I said, 600 years ago to even suggest the King was not of God would find you without a head.
Well - some of us are living here in the now - not 600 years ago!
Bells
Staff member
Why does there need to be consequences though?
Do you really think those uneducated about Islam or are down right idiots and judge people because of their notions of their religion will care or have their minds changed about this film?
Don't you think rioting and destroying people's property does more damage to Islam than this film ever could?
Why pander to the idiots in society by reacting to the film in such a violent manner? That's what I don't understand. Someone mentioned earlier that this film portrays Muslims in a bad light to those who are completely uneducated about Islam and Muslims in general. Don't you think the violent reaction to the film does more towards portraying Muslims in a bad light then the film ever could?
There is a way to counter the effects of this film. That is to ignore it and declare it full of untruths. By reacting so violently to it, Muslims in Holland are giving it the credence it probably does not deserve. The violent reactions will only further convince the uneducated masses that they might have just been right.
What's more, this sort of reaction only strengthens the hand of right wing idiots. Yes, thank you protesters for what amount to recruitment drives for extreme nationalist parties. Thank you for ensuring that right wing twits will be gaining more power and prominence. Thank you for making even normal people who really don't care what others believe wonder if maybe immigration policies should be changed.
Look Bells we have had our differences, but let me ask you this & give me your honest educated opinion back,
Q: As a washed up on the beach former ambulance chasing laywer, can you tell me if geert wilders is doing a good thing here?
Because bells although i dont like the guy & his motives, because i know he is a redneck, kkk nut, what he is doing is the same as the cartoon guy, he is forcing our democracies & our freedom of speach down our politicians throats, by doing this he brings it all into the arena, he knows politicians have to defend that right, because if we dont do this our freedoms will be eroded, what with all these new laws brought in because of islam fanatics, its only a matter of time before freedom of speach is censored too.
In his own way geert is protecting our freedom of speach, Bells do you believe in censorship? or the healthy expression of our freedom of speach in all its forms?
"There is a way to counter the effects of this film. That is to ignore it and declare it full of untruths. By reacting so violently to it,"
Bells, as we grow older into adulthood we are suppose to mature, our reactions are supposed to become educated to a situation, as a child we dont think we usually just react, now Bells i can see direct comparisons to muslim reactions & a childs reactions, there is no mature responses, no measured response, no educated replies, everytime we have a situation with islam be it cartoons or films, 1st we have the threats from iran to our countries, then we have the imans & clerics stirring up the locals in syria & pakistan & before you know it its mass demo's in the muslim world.
When did iran become the official spokesperson for the muslim world?
It hardly does islam any favours that when there is a problem with the west, iran & pakistan are the main countries stirring up the pot with diplomacy, neither country is clever at politics, infantile is a word that comes to mind.
Bells
Staff member
Face palm at the obvious stupidity.
*Face palm at the obvious stupidity.*
Seriously Vince, get a clue and for god's sake, learn to read and comprehend. You see, the two go hand in hand.
As for the film and my opinion of it, since it is obvious you didn't understand what I said the first time. I think it is just a film to be honest. If people find it offensive, they should simply not go and see it. By reacting violently to it, it gives it more publicity and the violent reaction, as Repo pointed out, will only drive more people towards the extreme right and will allow the stupid idiots who have ill-conceived beliefs about Muslims to think they were correct to judge them as they had been.
I can understand people feeling emotional and being offended at movies, cartoons, art, etc. But reacting violently to such things will never achieve anything good. Instead it just gives everyone associated with the protesters, be it by race, nationality, religion, etc, a bad name. Make a public statement and denounce it as being racist and discriminatory. Setting fire to cars, rioting and threatening people will only reiterate the message Wilders was trying to put across in the movie and drives the idiots to the right. What ever happened to a peaceful protest? Hell, I've been to plenty in my day. There's nothing wrong with protesting peacefully. Violence will never get one's point across. Violence only obliterates whatever point one is trying to make and makes you look like a twat.
You wanted my opinion? That is basically it.
:bugeye:
*Face palm at the obvious stupidity.*
Seriously Vince, get a clue and for god's sake, learn to read and comprehend. You see, the two go hand in hand.
As for the film and my opinion of it, since it is obvious you didn't understand what I said the first time. I think it is just a film to be honest. If people find it offensive, they should simply not go and see it. By reacting violently to it, it gives it more publicity and the violent reaction, as Repo pointed out, will only drive more people towards the extreme right and will allow the stupid idiots who have ill-conceived beliefs about Muslims to think they were correct to judge them as they had been.
I can understand people feeling emotional and being offended at movies, cartoons, art, etc. But reacting violently to such things will never achieve anything good. Instead it just gives everyone associated with the protesters, be it by race, nationality, religion, etc, a bad name. Make a public statement and denounce it as being racist and discriminatory. Setting fire to cars, rioting and threatening people will only reiterate the message Wilders was trying to put across in the movie and drives the idiots to the right. What ever happened to a peaceful protest? Hell, I've been to plenty in my day. There's nothing wrong with protesting peacefully. Violence will never get one's point across. Violence only obliterates whatever point one is trying to make and makes you look like a twat.
You wanted my opinion? That is basically it.
Provocation to me is walking around with demo posters & placards with bomb europe, or your 9-11 is coming or kill the queen, thats provocation, religon has always been a arena to poke fun at, many comedians base there careers around religon dave allen the irish comic who pokes fun at his own religon catholics, our Queen in the uk is often ridiculed in the uk press, so am i offended no i am not, even though i am a devout royalist, all though i can get very violent and angry when i see foreign nationals marching in london with death to the Queen or bomb europe on there placards, however if they want to print this stuff in there media or even our media i am not offended by it.
The most insulting thing one can do is to burn the uk flag in the heart of london, yet they did it during the cartoon fiasco that had nothing to do with us, or to walk around with placards provoking people, this is in your face provocation, newspapers, films we chose to buy or go to, you have a choice, demo's are the ultimate provocation when your agenda is to be extreme, & insulting to the entire population by saying your 9-11 is coming, we take your benefits, but we want you all to die, that is the ultimate provocation, yet londoners ignored them last year.
Well for once i agree with you, does that make us siamese twins?
as i am from thailand.
I am in Oz this year could we get together & let me debrief you?
I am there on a Mensa lecture.
Maybe we could go for a barbie?
Bells
Staff member
Oh my lord. You censor my books, treat me like a mental patient under your authority who needs protection from what you have decided insults me, and it's because you respect me ? How about I piss in your hair and tell you it's raining because I respect you ?arsalan said:
The major insult is not from the pictures, but from what you reveal about yourselves in your reactions to them. You talk like children on a playground, act like violents in an asylum - nothing in those pictures is as embarrassing to Islam as their ability to turn a bunch of allegedly religious and sensible people into a pack of clueless and violent lunatics, rioting over cartoons and killing people over movies shown in a foreign country they've never seen.kadark said:
The most telling criticism of Islam, in the West, is simply to point at people who act like that in the name of that religion. All the fine sounding phrases, the wisdom and sincerity of belief, the protestations of essential goodness, bounce off the prevalence of scenes like that as water off a window. Islam's "philosophies" and "teachings" don't matter much, in the face of that evidence: these are believers who murder their neighbors for making movies they find insulting to their Prophet. They set fire to their neighbors over cartoons printed half a planet away in a newspaper they've never read. They're crazy.
Who wants to improve someone else's religion ?kadark said:
That's probably been done - I don't think too many people noticed. If it hasn't, you might be able get a cable slot as a performance piece, one of those late night Public Television things that doesn't need ad revenue. Why do you ask ?arsalan said:
btw:
This well illustrates what you lose when you fly off the handle over "insult": Piss Christ is a photograph carefully arranged by a devoutlly religious man in genuine homage and reverence to Jesus. He is glorifying, deeply exalting, the transformative power of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. He is doing so from a basis of study of Medieval Christian beliefs and practices (urine played a different role then). Notice that the photo is in fact beautiful, as well as deeply meaningful - as a stained glass window in a cathedral it would be lovely, probably with a different title.kadark said:
And you would not pemit such things to be shown. Why? Because they offend people who have never seen them and don't understand them. You guys don't need an improved religion, you need a life and a clue.
You just don't get it.
It is YOU who are defending murderers.
But, you just don't seem to get that.
Do we now kill all morons? Are you fucking serious?
You still haven't defined these so-called consequences and you continue to make threats. Religion of peace?
Norsefire,
You seem to be excuse making. What about this. People in the USA are overwhelmingly Xian. They overwhelmingly think that any suggestion that Jesus did not die on the cross and that the Bible is not the inerrant living word of the living God is a GREAT insult. Ergo, if people over in the ME suggest otherwise - big big insult. Muslims are insulting their greatest religious bla bla bla ....
ergo if the USA decide to nuke the entire middle east - well, you were warned and not only that, you shouldn't view the American people badly. YOU insulted their messiah after all. In a sense, you practically had is coming.... ....
OR lets make the same case about something I care about freedom of speech
OR how about the Chinese and Mao?
Or etc.....
Time to move into the modern world, grow up, act like adults and learn to live with the fact that some people think down rights shittily about what other people respect. Tough - that's life. My ex-Muslim buddy (now atheist) has said some really horrible things about Mohammad. Guess what - he's entitled to think those things. That's life.
You seem to be excuse making. What about this. People in the USA are overwhelmingly Xian. They overwhelmingly think that any suggestion that Jesus did not die on the cross and that the Bible is not the inerrant living word of the living God is a GREAT insult. Ergo, if people over in the ME suggest otherwise - big big insult. Muslims are insulting their greatest religious bla bla bla ....
ergo if the USA decide to nuke the entire middle east - well, you were warned and not only that, you shouldn't view the American people badly. YOU insulted their messiah after all. In a sense, you practically had is coming.... ....
OR lets make the same case about something I care about freedom of speech
OR how about the Chinese and Mao?
Or etc.....
Time to move into the modern world, grow up, act like adults and learn to live with the fact that some people think down rights shittily about what other people respect. Tough - that's life. My ex-Muslim buddy (now atheist) has said some really horrible things about Mohammad. Guess what - he's entitled to think those things. That's life.
Then, Islam is NOT a religion of peace. Case closed on that.
Why do we have to play by YOUR rules? Why don't YOU make a movie about what you want people to believe about Islam? Why should we do that?
Then, YOU make a movie talking about the "other side." No one has to make that just because YOU say so.
Why don't YOU do that? Why should the filmmaker have to do that?
It is permissible as it is not a problem, except for Muslims.
No, that is YOUR own personal conclusion based on not seeing the film, hence you have no reason to comment whatsoever.
Bullshit! You or anyone else are perfectly free to make a film refuting the filmmakers points one by one if you wish. We aren't as stupid as you make us out to be, we can come to our conclusions, you don't need to do that for us.
So, if I want to make anyone angry, I must be prepared to be killed. What fucking rationale is that?
Then, by making that statement, you are every bit as guilty by supporting and defending the killings.
And no, the did NOT ask to be killed. That is complete bullshit.