Doesn't anybody else find it ironic that in a sense, anti-evolutionists, sensing that their strictly orthodox views alienated many people and were essentially "dying out," have "evolved" their beliefs into something less extreme in order to preserve the argument against evolution?
Intelligent Design?
- Thread starter jhuang
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Although ID as a philosopical concept is acceptable and even reasonable, the methods used by these advocates, like pseudoscientific psychobabble and nitpicking at Evolution theory, kinda compromise their integrity. Gives a great insight into the power of denial.
Personaly i believe in evolution by chance however many people i know believe in a god inspired evolution, i personaly think that it is possible that there is a god but i personaly could not believ the story of the garden of eden and adam and eve due to there being evidence of humans before when christians believe that took place
Teaching I.D. in a science class room is completely irresponsible. Especially due to the ulterior motive of these fundies in order to try and give their religion scientific value as they know full well in this day and age their religion is exposed as fantasy.
I wouldn't appreciate my education being messed around like that. Although, thankfully I never grew up in America
Just what is happening to America? Is religious extremisim actually going to get worse before it gets better?
I wouldn't appreciate my education being messed around like that. Although, thankfully I never grew up in America
Just what is happening to America? Is religious extremisim actually going to get worse before it gets better?
Pi-Sudoku... u should know that the garden of eden story is only allegory... adam and eve symbolize the two powers... yin and yang... and... when eve ate the "fruit"... it means that... it was the time when humans became conscious of themselves and their body...
the garden of eden... was not somewhere in space and time... the space and time were created because they ate the fruit... u become what you eat... and the fruit was "knowledge of the good and bad"... separation... creation... made visible...
indeed... i guided the process of evolution... with my small unconscious "mind"... a small "will"...
what gives the power to the negative and the positive... yes... it is me... nothingness... the tension of life...
just go deeper and deeper... smaller than atoms... that is where the "soul" is... the self... but it is also the greatest of all...
the garden of eden... was not somewhere in space and time... the space and time were created because they ate the fruit... u become what you eat... and the fruit was "knowledge of the good and bad"... separation... creation... made visible...
indeed... i guided the process of evolution... with my small unconscious "mind"... a small "will"...
what gives the power to the negative and the positive... yes... it is me... nothingness... the tension of life...
just go deeper and deeper... smaller than atoms... that is where the "soul" is... the self... but it is also the greatest of all...
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KennyJC said:Teaching I.D. in a science class room is completely irresponsible. Especially due to the ulterior motive of these fundies in order to try and give their religion scientific value as they know full well in this day and age their religion is exposed as fantasy.
I wouldn't appreciate my education being messed around like that. Although, thankfully I never grew up in America
Just what is happening to America? Is religious extremisim actually going to get worse before it gets better?
We're falling apart at the seams. Our government system, as it was designed, only functions assuming its citizens are willing to accept personal responsibility over all things surrounding them. Today, society is moving towards a socialist republic where they depend on the government to take care of their needs. In the 1800's people made their destiny in this country. Today, it is expected to be handed on a platter.
This same anti-American spirit was shown over the weekend when Toledo had a riot. There were some neo-nazis who wished to make a demonstration. When things got bad, the police told them they had to go home. After that, the anti-demonstrators attacked the police and medical units, as they were angry that the police allowed the demonstration to come into their neighborhood. There was a time when we had the right to demonstrate...those times seem nearly extinct, or at least the ideal. Those people who attacked the police voted against the right to free speech when the first stone was thrown.
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We are falling apart because people have abandoned science and reason. Democratic socialism is one of the best systems of government yet devised. Scaring the public with images of communist totalitarian Russia with its suppression of freedom is one of the ways the right encourages the rights of corporations over people. You see, promoting personal responsibility is just a euphamism for "every man for themselves", while corporations get every break they need to keep the elite rich supporting conservative politicians.
In the 1800's we had the robber barons, able to use monopolies to aquire vast wealth on the backs of workers that were barely able to make a living wage. In such a climate, all you could do is pray for a better life.
As proven government institutions are systematically destroyed, the hope is that people will be less empowered and turn to the informal network of churches for help, insitutions which promote a particular viewpoint.
I don't think ID is less extreme, it's just a con job. Notice that the same people will depend on medical science when they get ill, but other kinds of science are ignored, like climate science and biology.
In the 1800's we had the robber barons, able to use monopolies to aquire vast wealth on the backs of workers that were barely able to make a living wage. In such a climate, all you could do is pray for a better life.
As proven government institutions are systematically destroyed, the hope is that people will be less empowered and turn to the informal network of churches for help, insitutions which promote a particular viewpoint.
I don't think ID is less extreme, it's just a con job. Notice that the same people will depend on medical science when they get ill, but other kinds of science are ignored, like climate science and biology.
Not everyone, to be sure, but it is on the rise. The symptoms are- ID promoted as a science alternative, education chronically underfunded, denial of human caused global warming, religious zealouts appointed to office, chinese and russians ahead in the space race, the drug war...
Who is the government, again? The people. What is so bad about the people organizing in government institutions in order to fix social problems? That's what it's for. You are correct that people need to participate in it to make it work, otherwise the money changers take over the temple.jayleew said:
Also, the Neo-nazis are preaching hate, they get what they deserve.
No, they were taking responsibility for their community.jayleew said:
spidergoat said:
Please explain why you feel this way. Maybe I am using the wrong term. I'm talking about the acceptance of if your life sucks, then you get out and do something about it. If you see trouble coming, you do your best to handle the situation. That is contributing to society.
Some things need to be tackled together, but there is a healthy balance of when citizens need to look to the government for help. There are too many kids living on welfare, and liking it, and getting mad when the government asks them to get a job!
The government should not fix the problems, it should empower its citizens to fix the problems. That is what I mean by "personal responsibility". I am talking about the opposite of "every man for themselves" attitude.
I am talking about the American dream and the blood that was paid by sacrifice of self to the American dream. That is what we are losing.
Good point, a happy society has a government with the power to control corporations and labor practices, but how do you know that we still don't have that problem?spidergoat said:
It might be a good thing for this country to become more democratic during times of depression, but the market is still operational.
spidergoat said:
I do not advocate ID because I am undecided on the issue, and I have a problem with trying to prove intelligent design with science. If science were to prove intelligent design, it would show the limits of God since we were able to figure out how he did something, and we would be as intelligent as God in that respect (which kind of kills his godhood).
But, I know there is work going on with biology at ID with scientists like Michael Behe. But, i'm not saying their work is valid, but they are not ignoring biology.
It's a government by the people, and for the people. There is no difference between a citizen fixing the problem, and a government institution. If you are talking about welfare reform, that's a minor issue.
By not being "valid", it's a slap in the face to the legitimate methods of science.
spidergoat said:
What I am implying is that if the people were given the opprotunity to decide whether the neo-nazis could come in or not, they obviously would have decided against it. And squelching another's ideas by the use of force is not legal, and it is a testament to the degradation of the American ideal by the fact that there are instances of these anti-American acts/attitudes from within America.
If you are a true American, you would not forcibly censor a group's right to speech. We are supposed to tolerate it within the law and speak against it when it is time to.
Nothing, but it is the method that I question. Does it fix the problem in the short or long term? Can the problem be solved? This depends on what social problems we are talking about. There are programs that the government has that just fixes the problem, without fixing the underlying issue that is causing the problem.spidergoat said:
Once a person has proven to be doing all that he/she can, then the government should step in and support the person until he/she can be personally responsible and a functional part of society.
That is our philosophy with the different levels of government between federal, state, and local. New Orleans did not take personal responsibility of planning/executing an evacuation/aid plan. Instead, immediate response was expected from the federal government. That attitude is the same as a person on welfare getting upset when the aid is cut off. "Why aren't you taking care of me, that is why I am paying taxes!" Responsibility is shifted from the individual to the second, larger party. That is the attitude that is destroying America.
There is no difference in the sense you are talking about, but I'm talking about the attitude that is destroying the American dream. The dream that you can make your life better by getting out and working in a cotton field 12 hours a day just to make ends meet. I don't agree with that wage problem, but that some people are not willing to take that crappy job, but would rather stay on welfare. It may be a minor issue, but it is a clear indication of the shifiting attitudes of the American citizens, and that is the issue in question. What makes us Americans? Have we forgot our history? Has our capitalistic society promoted this ideal and is its own enemy?spidergoat said:
I think almost everyone would rather make a living themselves than take a pitifully small handout. This is a common misconception about welfare. Many welfare recipients ARE working at jobs that cannot support their families.
What is destroying the American Dream, better called the MIDDLE CLASS, is the destruction of labor unions by the republicans, as well as the exportation of our manufacturing jobs. Working at McDonalds for less than a living wage will not allow anyone to rise above the poverty level.
Our capitalistic society is a worthy system, but it creates a group of elites with a disproportionate influence in our government. What we have to do is election and campaign reform, not welfare reform.
jhuang,
The phrase, "intelligent design" is taken right out of the scopes monkey trial, it's not even new.
What is destroying the American Dream, better called the MIDDLE CLASS, is the destruction of labor unions by the republicans, as well as the exportation of our manufacturing jobs. Working at McDonalds for less than a living wage will not allow anyone to rise above the poverty level.
Our capitalistic society is a worthy system, but it creates a group of elites with a disproportionate influence in our government. What we have to do is election and campaign reform, not welfare reform.
jhuang,
The phrase, "intelligent design" is taken right out of the scopes monkey trial, it's not even new.
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you mean that now they include evolution but add 'God'?jhuang said:
i see the confusion like tis....te crwationists are still stuck with teir archaic belief in a desgnewr 'GOD'--as is written about in their Bible, Koran etc.
and the evolutionists are stuck to the Darwinian mechanical concept of reality. that it is 'blind forces' etc etc, and consciousness a mere accident
neither seem to be exploring te possibility of sentience. of matter being intelligent.
The Nazis' right to speech was not censored. It was restricted. You have the right to say whatever you want but not necessarily wherever and whenever you want to.jayleew said:
If you disagree then give me the address of your church. I'd like to give my video presentation this Sunday on the greatest Tijuana Donkey Acts of all time.
~Raithere
Oh give me a break. Not this again.jayleew said:
The mayor of New Orleans and the governor of Lousiana did everything they could. Their acceptance of personal responsibility wouldn't have solved anything more. We expect the feds to help, because they are us, they are citizens of this country invested with more power than local governments. The federal government failed in an obvious way, they forgot to include New Orleans in their disaster response, even though the governor explicitly included the city in their emergency declaration.
This sentiment is typical of the religious right, it sounds high and moral, but it's just an excuse for greed. The real message? Don't take my money, I don't know you.
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