Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

[Kovak]

What else is there ultimately? All artificial or man made products are in essence natures 'secrets' waiting to be eventually discovered by intellectually evolving human cultures on our planet Earth.

Ultimately in a pure physical sense as the Universe is one immense 'atom', the atom and thus atomic energy must be discovered by conscious beings on any planet (if conducive to intelligent life) along with its potential for positive and negative purposes.

The ultimate result is near total destruction of the myriad of beautiful habitats and animals on this unique planet by mans misuse of this atomic energy; pollution, unbridled population growth and climate change notwithstanding..

World wide nuclear disarmament should be our generations goal and legacy to the forthcoming generations...

 

[swarm]

However we can re-create things, modify the conditions according to our projects. We use nature, as much as we create and use artificial things.

It would not be unreasonable to say one type of human intervention which makes something artificial is its manufacture. Aka unnatural items are artifacts.

One of the difficulty is some want to seperate humans off from all other creatures, but I see no problem saying a wasps nes or termites mound is equally a manuactured item and therefore artificial.

We just employ artificial means more frequently and in a wider range of areas.

But really the distinction itself is at best hazy.

 

[swarm]

The ultimate result is near total destruction of the myriad of beautiful habitats and animals on this unique planet by mans misuse of this atomic energy; pollution, unbridled population growth and climate change notwithstanding.

Actually if you look at history it is obvious that mass extinctions are a part of the evolutionary process. The previous homeostasis is destroyed and the evolutionary niches cleared and new creatures evolve to fill them.

I see a lot of parallels between the current extinction and the one at the beginning of the Triassic. It could be argued that we are a new form of mammal evolving which is able to seriously out compete the other more primitive species as the dinosaur/bird-reptiles were able to out compete the more primitive mammalianesque-reptiles and other reptile species before them.

How this will play out is hard to say. With no preditors other than disease and us and the ability to move into every available terrain we are like super land trilobytes, but our fecundity is preventing speciation at the moment and we are degrading our envirornment to beneath our current occupation. Also being able to directly manipulate our genetics is an interesting twist.

It unfortunately looks like we will have a die back before we get smart enough to live sustainably. But that is how these things work.

 

[baftan]

One of the difficulty is some want to seperate humans off from all other creatures, but I see no problem saying a wasps nes or termites mound is equally a manuactured item and therefore artificial.
.....................
But really the distinction itself is at best hazy.

Wasps and termites do things because they are coded to do so. They are simply expressions of nature's pure DNA. We humans however do things because they are learned, known and developed by our mental decisions. The worse human technical or scientific attempt or invention anyone can imagine has more potential than any other structure in nature. Because human knowledge can expand, improve, preserve or diversify according to intention. Nature simply evolves without an intention. This "simply" does not take anything from nature's sophisticated systems. Yet we can guess that termites could not build such and such things, while we can not make the same prediction for human artificial creations.

And the human "artificial" creations are not limited only to material "artifacts". They rather have their own dimension where even communication tools (language and symbols) are artificial. All our social rules, organization models have a kind of human logic behind them rather than natural forces and their causes. Brain neurons are the product of nature, that's correct; but we use them to understand everything, we use our brain tissues to create our dreams and formulas, and eventually transfer and alternate what was readily -yet "unknowingly"- provided by nature.

We have been imagining paradise for centuries. Now we are at the doorsteps of creating the paradise for real rather than simply believe in that it would emerge after we die. We went into the space, we saw the atom and we measured the forces as much as we decoded the secret of life. This knowledge is the most amazing force, and it is uncomparable to anything in the known universe.

 

[eddie23]

What we leave behind is the only known form of immortality. I know few who would give it up. In a way, carrying on bits of ourselves is the only reason we bother continuing the species.

Ever watch the show "life after man" five it 1000 years and all traces are gone!

 

[swarm]

Wasps and termites do things because they are coded to do so.

So does a factory robot.

We humans however do things because they are learned, known and developed by our mental decisions.

The first hand ax was in use for a period of 1 million years without any change. I don't see any big difference between that and a wasp nest.

Some tribes of chimps have just recently learned to crack nuts. How is their innovation different from ours?

Yes, I'm familiar with our most popular inventions, hubris. But I still only see us as a matter of degree and not a difference in kind.

 

[kmguru]

Wasps and termites do things because they are coded to do so. They are simply expressions of nature's pure DNA. We humans however do things because they are learned, known and developed by our mental decisions.

Does that mean, our DNA coding does not allow to learn and develop stuff but the DNA coding of termites allow to do such activities? And we do not have natures pure DNA...because?

How did the nature develop such DNA anyway? and why?

 

[wesmorris]

yo peeps beez awl natchul n sit damzit.

fo reelz.

if you don't think so, come up with a real reason to splain why.

nothing presented so far remotely touches it.

i'd say it's impossible excepting the case where your dogma precludes the possibility in which case there is no conversation to be had, only conversions to be pursued!

people seem to give people some kind of separation from nature, as if.

i think it's generally thought of like that, and unless you're willing to really pursue thinking about it and are open to accepting the reality that we're 'complicated apes', you can't and there's really nothing to discuss.

i accept it because IMO, consistency demands it. i find the word "unnatural" to be of mid-evil type origin wherein such thinking could not be disputed, as the 'natural world' was far less fathomable at the time. it can still be useful when attempting to differentiate stuff, but the usage is simply wrong IMO... but English is imperfect and blah blah blah.

 

[baftan]

Does that mean, our DNA coding does not allow to learn and develop stuff but the DNA coding of termites allow to do such activities? And we do not have natures pure DNA...because?

How did the nature develop such DNA anyway? and why?

Different types of learning for different type of existence: DNA teach its experience to next generations through the library of species. DNA expresses its coded knowledge of light through eyes; each moving, flying, swimming animal is the expression of what DNA does with gravity.

But for upper level of existence, a mother wildcat teaches its sibling how to hunt; and it is a quite complicated process. However, it does not occur at the level of DNA; its rather related with the individualities of mother wildcat and its sibling. DNA becomes a material. Just as atoms are materials for DNA. Should we ask here "Does atom learn?". I find it irrelevant.

Yes, we do not have nature's pure DNA, not anymore. Because we can think outside of it. Not independent from it yet. But still outside.

 

[sushil yadav]

The ultimate result is near total destruction of the myriad of beautiful habitats and animals on this unique planet by mans misuse of this atomic energy; pollution, unbridled population growth and climate change notwithstanding..

Kovak,

This crazy society did not anticipate "Financial Collapse" until it actually happened.

This crazy society is not going to anticipate "Ecosystem Collapse" until it actually happens.


The way this insane, abnormal and criminal society is running is like :

A car running in a closed garage.

Adding extra floors to a building by removing bricks from the lower floors.

The crash - the collapse - the end is coming.

It is a matter of one or two decades at the most.


sushil_yadav
PowerSwitch
EnviroLink
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

 

[wesmorris]

Of course. The sky is falling. I KNEW IT.

Awesome analysis.

Were you aware that "societies" don't and can't predict things?

Crazy I know.

The end is coming.

Brilliant.

OF COURSE IT IS.

The question is when and why, and you are apparently perched happily on your podium, preaching love and peace with scorn and vile for those you blame for your predicament.

Wag that finger sushil. Wag it like stephen colbert.

"two decades at the most".

Well thank god you're here to make things perfectly dogmatic, or I wouldn't know what to think.

 

[wesmorris]

Actually if you look at history it is obvious that mass extinctions are a part of the evolutionary process. The previous homeostasis is destroyed and the evolutionary niches cleared and new creatures evolve to fill them.

I see a lot of parallels between the current extinction and the one at the beginning of the Triassic. It could be argued that we are a new form of mammal evolving which is able to seriously out compete the other more primitive species as the dinosaur/bird-reptiles were able to out compete the more primitive mammalianesque-reptiles and other reptile species before them.

How this will play out is hard to say. With no preditors other than disease and us and the ability to move into every available terrain we are like super land trilobytes, but our fecundity is preventing speciation at the moment and we are degrading our envirornment to beneath our current occupation. Also being able to directly manipulate our genetics is an interesting twist.

It unfortunately looks like we will have a die back before we get smart enough to live sustainably. But that is how these things work.

The above is probably the best post of the thread.

 

[sushil yadav]

It unfortunately looks like we will have a die back before we get smart enough to live sustainably. But that is how these things work.

swarm,

Like you, I too wish we could live sustainably and save the [remaining] ecosystems. But this is not going to happen as long as Industrial Society exists.

Industrial Society is insane. It believes ecosystems can be saved while it continues to increase "growth rate", "economy rate" and GDP.

Believing that we can save ecosystems while we continue making consumer goods is like believing we can cure cancer while we continue flooding the environment with thousands of carcinogens.

It is like believing we can have peace in this world while the "Military Industrial Complex" continues to produce and sell billions of tonnes of weapons all over the world.

Asking humans to save environment is like asking petrol to extinguish a fire.


sushil_yadav
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

 

[Carcano]

Sushil, dont you think its possible to develop technologies that have few negative effects on man and the environment.

Nuclear power for example is far more benign than burning vast amounts of coal.

 

[sushil yadav]

Sushil, dont you think its possible to develop technologies that have few negative effects on man and the environment.

Nuclear power for example is far more benign than burning vast amounts of coal.

Carcano,

We have arrived at the present crisis due to human solutions. Overpopulation and Overconsumerism are a result of science, technology and Industrial Revolution. All solutions of man have actually been problems in disguise - they have led to far bigger and greater problems. Nuclear material is the most dangerous - most toxic thing on earth. It remains lethal/ radioactive for 20,000 - 30,000 years. We have produced hundreds of thousands of tonnes of radioactive material/ waste which kees leaking and contaminating air, water and soil at frequent intervals.

We could repair, restore and regenerate the ecosystems if we could get hold of the MultiNational Companies that manufactured the ecosystems - if we could get the names and addresses of MultiNational Companies that manufactured the rivers and oceans, clean air, fertile soil, the glaciers, the forests, millions of species and millions of members in millions of species.


Man destroys ecosystems for food.

Man destroys ecosystems for clothing.

Man destroys ecosystems for shelter.

Man destroys ecosystems for thousands of consumer goods.


Man was destroying the least in hunter-gatherer stage. The destruction increased in agrarian society when man cleared forests for agriculture and housing - but this destruction was not too much and agricultural societies sustained for thousands of years. The rate of destruction rose exponentially after Industrial Revolution when man started making thousands of consumer goods. In about 250 years most of the ecosystems have been destroyed beyond repair.

Man cannot repair, restore or regenerate ecosystems - Man can only destroy ecosystems.

The rate of destruction is under our control - we can keep it high - we can keep it low.

We have a very small planet - just 40,000 km in circumference.

The fewer things we make - the more sustainable we are.


People are under a wrong impression that collapse is yet to happen. Collapse is a gradual process and has been happening for a long time. Collapse has already happened for millions of other secies which have been decimated. It is only human collapse that is yet to happen.

sushil_yadav
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

 

[Carcano]

We have arrived at the present crisis due to human solutions. Overpopulation and Overconsumerism are a result of science, technology and Industrial Revolution. All solutions of man have actually been problems in disguise - they have led to far bigger and greater problems.

You could say the same about the discovery and use of fire...or the wheel.

Do you really want to go...WAY back???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=929ceD32uVo

 

[sushil yadav]

You could say the same about the discovery and use of fire...or the wheel.

Do you really want to go...WAY back???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=929ceD32uVo

No one is asking people to go back to caves/ stone age. We don't have enough caves to accomodate 7 billion people - nor do we have enough farmland that can accomodate all of us.

If we destroy ecosystems for food, clothing, shelter [ and health care], the ecosystems will last longer.

If we destroy ecosystems for food, clothing, shelter and thousands of consumer goods, the ecosystems will finish much sooner.

If we continue producing consumer goods that we are making today we are going to be wiped out very soon.

The stage of man wanting this - man wanting that is over. If we continue with the present consumerist lifestyle, agriculture is going to collapse worldwide due to climate change. Man has already decimated fish in the ocean. There will be nothing left to eat.

sushil_yadav
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

 

[Carcano]

No one is asking people to go back to caves/stone age.

Ok then, so you obviously believe many of man's technological solutions are benign and beneficial.

And also that many technological solutions are destructive.

So please make a list of which technologies you accept and which you reject.

 

[fedr808]

Nobody would ever regress one step backwards to appease the environment.

Im not one of those "destroy the earth" people btw.

What i mean is the only way to save the environment is to keep stepping forwards in our search of better green technology.

 

[sushil yadav]

Ok then, so you obviously believe many of man's technological solutions are benign and beneficial.

Technology and Industrialization are beneficial/ good?

Good for whom?

Good for the forests that have been cut down? Take a look at the satellite pictures of forests taken 30 years ago and compare them with satellite pictures taken this year.

Good for Arctic ice and other glaciers across the world? Take a look at the satellite pictures of Arctic ice taken 30 years ago and compare them with satellite pictures taken this year.

Good for the air? The atmosphere has been poisoned with thousands of toxic, man-made chemicals - and billions of tonnes of CO2 and other gases.

Good for fish? The fish have been decimated in the oceans.

Good for the soil/ land? Millions of acres of land has been killed by covering with cement and concrete - poisoned with pesticides - turned into landfill and garbage dump.

Good for the oceans? There is billions of tonnes of plastic trash in the oceans. At any given time there are 50,000 ships moving in the oceans - killing them moment by moment.

Good for the millions of species that have been decimated?


Human life exists because of animals, trees, air, water and land - which sustained human life for hundreds of thousands of years. Science, technology and Industrialization have destroyed all these things. It is quite obvious that human life is coming to an end very soon.

And it will certainly be good riddance for planet Earth.


sushil_yadav
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment