Cris:
Cris said:
Look not to convince others that you are right and they are wrong but instead use your arguments to reassure yourself that your perpective is correct and that if correct then it will outlast any opposition. However, if in your own mind your arguments are not reassuring then you should be brutally honest with yourself and re-assess your perspective.
Spoken from the perspective of a Christian from 30+ years ago who woke up and faced reality.
I wouldn't disagree with that. But I don't think it matters that you were a Christian for 30 years, it doesn't make your arguments more solid to me. People can still get lost no matter how long they have been on the right way. But I guess that you'd rather say that you found the right way, but that's just because we believe different things. But surely you allready understand that, so why are there so much disagreement if we understand eachother?
Enigma'07:
Enigma'07 said:
Sometimes it may seem like that, and if their whole point is to argue for the sake of argueing, it probably is. But, we as Christians also have the duty to present what we believe to other people whether they accept it or not. I don't really know. I gues I like participatng in some of the discusstions because it gives me a heads up to the stuff people have skeptisisms about, and its helpful for witnessing to people face to face. God also mentions that He hardens some people's hearts, and at that rate, it would be more effective to pray for the person as you discuss with them that God might soften their heart. Make sense?
Actually I don't think there are that many differences between our way of arguing and their way.
...mostly because there are no "our" way and "their" way, there are ways for different people, not different religions, at least when it comes to discussion. But people want to put labels, and they expect someone with a certain label to behave in a certain way (which can actually make christians (for example) to behave in that way), but God's message maybe could be preached no matter what personality you have, and thus it shouldn't matter if you have a label on you that you try to behave after.
~this isn't directed at you personaly Enigma, just expressing some things that I've found.
I understand your point, it's sometimes good to know how they perceive things. But all atheist doesn't perceive things the same way, and thus what you get to know from one atheist may not relate to another atheist. But of course atheists have things in common, but their reasons differ, I sure hope you find a way, but remember, if you do, you can't change people as a regular basis. It doesn't work that way, you can change yourself, and put an end to arguments within yourself that isn't good. Actually I think, that if there are many different ideas within you, you should pray to God that He helps you order these ideas, so that they don't interfer that much with your everyday life. As I said in some previous post "we should rest in our belief".
Don't take me wrong, I don't mean anything wrong with this.
Godless:
Godless said:
Resistance is futile we will assimilate you! GROW UP!!
Grow up?
Ah!! infidel, your very heart and mind directs you to logic and reason, it's not us that needs to understand anything, "we've already been christians, catholics, babtists, muslims, etc. of religious dogman." we understand more than what you give us credit for, we've been "enlighten" by reality, reason and logic. It is you that has doubts when disscussing with us, you've rarely see an atheist have doubts about his/her's lack of religious convictions.
I realise that atheist can come from vastly different scenarios in life. But atheist often do show a nature of not understanding. Or they do that because of other reasons, whatever they may be. If they suggest in some way that they don't understand then naturally theists will feel a need to make their point to them. Otherwise what's the point of discussion?
If you are "weaken" by others, then your own religious convictions are not as solid as you claim them to be, if you are weaken by any postion that you may uphold wether atheism, theist of any denomination, then it is YOU that needs to revelaute your convictions.
No need to point fingers.
Because of the nature of Faith, we can be weakend when someone shows no faith at all, or a total disrespect in our beliefs (like your alias "godless").
Truly I dont feel in vain, for your failed attempts, nor do I feel in vain for mine, to make you see reason, logic, reality, without fantasy.
We see reason, logic and reality. We can see it as clear as you do without fantasy. I don't believe God is a fantasy.
Leo Volont:
Leo Volont said:
I am guessing you are still young. With more life experience you might realize that it often takes years for a convincing argument to finally convince. Hitting an intelligent person with a good argument is like planting a Seed. Sometimes it takes decades before someone finally realizes that you were 'right'.
Yes, I understand that. I've seen it myself, and have experianced it myself. I'm 22 years old...I've had alot of different experiances in my life. Though I guess with older age comes experiance that is far greater than mine.
RosaMagika:
RosaMagika said:
Cyperium,
If anything, I am an agnostic. And when I am approached by religious people, the message I get is: "You, Rosa, are not good enough for me if you don't think the way I do."
I don't think that way.
I try to be stoic, I try to listen inspite of having my personal value doubted like this -- but I am getting seriously tired of this.
I don't doubt your value.
Yes, you are arguing in vain, if you are approaching the other person as if they were worth less than you because they don't think the same way you do.
I'm no greater than you. The Bible teaches us that we are all sinners, so they shouldn't think that they are greater than you either. Maybe they follow pride? Christianity doesn't preach pride. I really hope you can do something to set them straight. It's sad to hear that you have seen this behaviour in christians.
I honestly think that it's sad.
Adstar:
Adstar said:
I take it you mean a waste of time when we talk to atheists who will never accept the Messiah Jesus. Well it is a complete waste of time for the atheists who will never accept. But the thing is we do not know every atheists future do we? So we should share the Message of Jesus to everyone irrespective of our own personal assessment on the likelihood of their acceptance or not of the Love of the truth.
I agree.
Do you have the scripture for this?
2 Tim 2:14 Remind people of these things and charge them before God to stop disputing about words. This serves no useful purpose since it harms those who listen.
In my Swedish Bible the nearest translation would be:
"Remind everyone of this and [charge them before God] to not discuss. It doesn't bring any good but becomes devestating to the listeners".
But when I read this, it seem to relate to discussions christian to christian and not christan vs. atheist. Thus I'm sad to say that I might be wrong to say that it's wrong to discuss.
But I remember reading about it in a different context than that of 2 timotheos.
I will provide scriptures from now on.
Something else that also has to do with discussing:
Eph 4:29
"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers."
“
But it also say that by discussion can one know a person.
”
Do you have the scripture for this?
The Swedish Bible (Bible 2000) has a book which I haven't found in your english Bible. It's called "Jesus Syraks Vishet" (in english; "Jesus Syraks Wisdom"), in this book Syr 27:7 it tells us "do not praise a man before you have heard him discuss, cause it is by discussion a man is tested".
In the same book, syr 6:7, "If you want a friend, test him first and don't give your trust at once".
Well the thing is that we do not think of all the arguments do we? The good thing about getting arguments from atheists is that they will give you all the arguments that you have not thought of. This prompts one to seek answers to those arguments when those answers are found ones faith is strengthened. The more ones faith is challenged the more one has to concentrate on finding out more about their faith those who are challenged are refined.
Yes, but there are hidden things that most of us don't understand, and it's easy to make up your own explanation and thus wander away from truth. Sometimes it may be legitimate to make a interpretation of something, based on the scriptures, but way too often this goes out of hand, and the interpretation don't allways become true to the scripture which is interpreted.
Sometimes we have a feeling of what the truth is, but we don't have words to express it, thus we may resort to lies in a attempt to show people what we feel is true. Though the truth must be approached using the truth. You can't come to the truth using lies.
These are dangers with discussing.
If they can weaken you then that means your faith is not that strong anyway. And it is best to put oneself to the test to find out how solid your faith is because if we find out we are weak then it will give us the motivation to get into the Word seriously.
What do you mean by getting into the Word?
Well once again you have not provided any scripture. The one that pops to my mind is this.
Matthew 7:6
"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
There comes a point in any discussion where we have to make a decision to cease discussion when our hearts tell us that our attempts to give the Message of salvation has come to no effect upon the one we are sharing it with. It is truly vanity and a great waste of time fir us to continue to strive with one who will not hear. We can lead them to water but we cannot make them drink.
The scripture is again, from the Swedish Bible 2000, Jesus Syraks Vishet (Jesus Syraks Wisdom), and it is as follows:
Syr 8:19 (my own translation from Swedish to English):
"Don't show your inner self to whomever, for that you only get ingratitude".
Also Syr 8:18
"Don't deal with secrets in a strangers presence, you don't know what he can cause".
I know how demoralizing it can be when the message is rejected and how saddening it is when the person we are reaching out for has found a place in our hearts. But remember it is our calling to be the givers of the message we are not commanded to be successful givers, We are to give it our best shot and leave the rest to the conviction of the Holy Spirit upon those who are hearing the Message. I know that a lot of Christians take it upon themselves to be personally responsible for the success or otherwise in the outcome of their efforts to reach out to the lost. But this is wrong, we are not responsible for ensuring the Message is received. We are only responsible to see that the Message is offered in the best way we can.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I agree. Something I myself must work on is providing scriptures...