I'm not sure which issue to make a topic of

Yeah ... uh ... well? (Select all that apply)

  • The man should hang

    Votes: 3 23.1%
  • The court did alright

    Votes: 4 30.8%
  • Thirteen children?!

    Votes: 6 46.2%
  • There should be a cap on how many children you can have

    Votes: 7 53.8%
  • Mandatory sterilization would be a fair punishment

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • Only in America ....

    Votes: 6 46.2%

  • Total voters
    13

Tiassa

Let us not launch the boat ...
Valued Senior Member
Virginia Father Gets Scant Jail Time in Death (Washington Post)
A Manassas father of 13 who inadvertently left his youngest daughter to die in the family's van on a hot day was spared all but symbolic jail time by a judge who ordered him to do volunteer work and told social service workers to closely monitor the family.

Prince William Circuit Court Judge Rossie D. Alston Jr. sentenced Kevin C. Kelly, 46, to spend every Feb. 21 in jail for the next seven years, to volunteer for two hours each week and to sponsor an annual blood drive in the name of his daughter Frances on the Saturday following the anniversary of her May 29 death.

Alston could have sent Kelly to jail for up to 12 months -- the recommendation of the jury that convicted him of involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment. The judge said he ordered the seven days to honor the jury's desire that Kelly "see the inside of a jail," but said he felt Kelly's primary responsibility should be taking care of his family.

"I have no doubt you are a good man," Alston told Kelly from the bench yesterday afternoon during a 20-minute hearing. "But a lot of people out there think you're a despicable person for letting your daughter die alone. It's a shame someone had to die because of a mistake, as you put it.

"I can't bring Frances back. I wish I could," added Alston, who is known for trying to tailor sentences carefully to the crimes and defendants before him. "I need to take some serious steps to make sure you understand what you did and send a message to the community."

Frances Kelly was 21 months old when she died of hyperthermia, strapped in her car seat in the family's van for seven hours. Kevin Kelly, a civil engineer who is active in his church, said he forgot she was there as he did chores around the house. The convictions could have put him behind bars for up to 15 years.
Okay ...

- I'm struck by the court's compassion.
- Thirteen children?!
- While I think I actually approve of what I'm reading in this story, for the bench's part, I'm curious what others think.
- Unusual? Perhaps, but any attorney would be foolish to the point of disbarment to challenge this sentence on Constitutional grounds--it certainly isn't cruel.

Sound off ... I'm not sure which issue to start with, forgetting a child in a car, or having thirteen children to compel you to forget one of them.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
the fact that he has 13 kids isnt only his fault

takes 2 to tango

fact that he let his child die in a car means he is SCUM

rot in jail and give the kids to someone who WILL care for them
 
Just imagine having 13 kids. 3 is hard enough.

I'm missing the point of why he is SCUM that should be drawn and quartered. Do you think he did this on purpose?
 
in cases like this i would always expect the circumstances to be considered
the most important determination to be made here is if the defendant was a good parent or a flake. this shit should be treated as a human tragedy and not as a crime. why compound ones grief by punishment? on the other hand, if there are indications of neglect blah, throw the book at em. the sentencing should also serve as notice to parents to take the welfare of their kids seriously
 
personnaly id like to know who voted the court did alright. I mean really, he forget about his youngest daughter and left her to die!!! Out of 15 years in prison he couldve gotten, and the year he shouldve, he spends a day in jail once a year. Really, its his fault that someone DIED, and he gets away with a slap on the wrists?!:mad:
 
The needs of the many ...

I think the judge was looking at the fact that sending the man to prison would leave twelve more kids without proper support. Sometimes what's best for the community isn't revenge. And from a judge's point of view, that means any of those 12 kids are more likely to come through his courtroom as future defendants if he sends the father to prison.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:
 
I'm missing the point of why he is SCUM that should be drawn and quartered. Do you think he did this on purpose?

Doesn't it look that way?

Tiassa:
I think the judge was looking at the fact that sending the man to prison would leave twelve more kids without proper support.

I'd have no problem with that, but these kids are now being sent back to an abusive and neglectful man who appears guilty of murder.

Frankly, the whole idea of this is disgusting. It's reminiscent of the joke about the parracide who cried for mercy because he was an orphan.

I point to this case as further proof that the concept of "punishment" is inane and flawed.
 
Doesn't it look that way?
Well no... I don't think so. He forgot about his kid in the backseat. Just this past snowstorm in NE US the kids and I were playing outfront and when we all came in, evidently one was still outfront. I didn't notice because I had so many other things on my mind. Granted that it is much easier to keep track of a 2 year old, but along with 12 other kids?

If you think he did this because he wants less kids, there whould be much more effective ways of loosing more two or three at a time... methods that he wouldn't be blamed for.

Maybe there is proof that this was intentional, but I don't see it.
I'd have no problem with that, but these kids are now being sent back to an abusive and neglectful man who appears guilty of murder.
Was there evidence of abuse... besides this one event?
 
Persol:

So you're saying that you're so indifferent to your own children that you could forget about one of them for seven hours?

I'm sorry, that doesn't sound like normal mammalian behaviour.

If you think he did this because he wants less kids, there whould be much more effective ways of loosing more two or three at a time... methods that he wouldn't be blamed for.

Nobody ever said murderers were good at what they do. Otherwise they'd not get caught.

Was there evidence of abuse... besides this one event?

Well, the fact that he had more children than he could care for (obviously). The fact that his child died in a horrible manner might be another....:rolleyes:

The Manassas father of 13 who left his 21-month-old daughter in the family's van in May told police that his eldest son was supposed to be watching the toddler and acknowledged that he didn't once ask about her as she overheated and died, according to documents filed yesterday in Prince William County Circuit Court.

The documents portray a family in which the oldest children were taking increasing responsibility for the care of their siblings. Early last year, that led the family's eldest daughter to a mental breakdown and hospitalization, during which she told doctors that she "thought she had too much responsibility and complained about it," the documents say.


He had time to be "active in his community" but not time to ask once - in seven hours - whether his child was okay?

*Edit*
Marshall, too, said what happened to the Kellys could happen to anyone in a moment of distraction. "Mary and Joseph lost Jesus for three days," he said, recounting the New Testament story of Jesus lingering behind to talk to the elders, "and God himself picked them."

Most everybody involved in this case is fucking sick.
 
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hail eris? i say hail xev!

:D

personally i coudnt give a fuck if all the kids died of neglect. is that bad of me? do i need help?
 
personally i coudnt give a fuck if all the kids died of neglect. is that bad of me? do i need help?

Personally, I just want him killed to satiate my bloodlust. :)

Naw seriously, if you're going to whelp the little brats, you ought to damn well care for 'em. Kids are way too cool to just kill like that.
 
One down (a toast)

I point to this case as further proof that the concept of "punishment" is inane and flawed.
Hear! Hear! I'll drink to that!

Still, it's a better outcome than Florida, where people who deliberately murder people with premeditation are considered a good parental role model. Child molesters, too.

I know I bring that one up way too much, but practically speaking, someone has to account for the remaining 12 children, and it is in society's best influence that this man be allowed to provide for them.

We might compare this death to an actual murder and note that an operational difficulty, a planning oversight, a flaw in the execution of one's parental duties demanded the highest price. When a kid "almost dies" falling off a roof or out of a tree, or, like me, nearly drowning after hitting the water at 70 mph when I hit a piece of wood while water-skiing and destroying my life-jacket, nobody ever thinks about it. My dad and I laugh about that, or the time we capsized a sailboat watching a plume of ash billow across the sky after St. Helens blew on one or another occasion. Don't you think it a little negligent of my father to obey a 14 year-old's call to open the throttle and see how fast the boat can go? I was under the sailboat, with my dad diving repeatedly thinking I was caught in the rigging; what would he have said if he'd hauled my drowned 7 year-old corpse in from the water?

Even my parents' generation tells stories of being the oldest child, having to raise several siblings while Mom and Dad worked. And we pay teenagers to watch young children while parents go out for leisure. Statistically speaking, something like this is bound to happen. Should I never go out again? Well, certainly my mother knows how to tend a child--she has the touch and I find myself envious. But she's a state away. But whom do I get as a babysitter? If I hire a babysitter whose negligence or direct action harms my child, how do I answer for placing my child in inadequate care while seeking leisure, say a night of dinner and a couple drinks?

Which is why I don't know which issue to make. Things happen, even bad things. But this bad thing was most easily preventable by not having 13 children. With an eldest daughter having a nervous breakdown from coping with the demands of familial responsibility--regardless of how justly or otherwise placed upon her--what can we expect to happen if we send the father to prison, remove whatever it is he contributes to the family? It seems to me that the older children will just have to step up to the plate.

Of course, comparatively, this guy makes Woody Allen seem almost decent? I mean, after all, Woody didn't kill one of his children, just fucked her.

Remember, though, that dying children has, as an issue, sucked a lot of wind from the sails of faith-healing Christian sects that refuse modern medicine. A few more of these lambs and whatever religious preconceptions lead a man to father 13 children will fade from American culture. The habit is already stigmatized comedically; once it gets a brand as dangerous, things will change some. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few; in my day, children drowned in swimming pools, choked to death on camera caps, leapt off roofs to their deaths--things happened. The need to blame the parents for every little thing that goes wrong has arisen from a pointlessly punishment-driven culture. And now we have a very big thing on our hands, but the lessons are the same. Imagine the father goes to prison and the mother remarries. Now, imagine that guy, foolish enough to marry into an obligation to 12 children. Comparatively, Negligent Dad has an advantage over New Dad. Negligent Dad has endured approximately the worst lesson he can learn, and must bear responsibility for the needless death of one of his own children. His honor, it would seeem, recognizes this idea--he's less likely to make this same mistake at all. And, given that boys will be boys, children will be children, and people are inclined to hurt themselves regularly, maybe this guy won't make the same mistake of assuming such habits to be without consequence.

The best way for this man to take responsibility for the damage caused by his actions is to rebuild his parental values and stake himself on the futures of his children. In that sense everybody wins except for the dead, and there's nothing we could do anyway that would change that loss.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:
 
. Negligent Dad has endured approximately the worst lesson he can learn, and must bear responsibility for the needless death of one of his own children. His honor, it would seeem, recognizes this idea--he's less likely to make this same mistake at all. And, given that boys will be boys, children will be children, and people are inclined to hurt themselves regularly, maybe this guy won't make the same mistake of assuming such habits to be without consequence.


yes

perhaps while we huddle and console each other over this tragedy, we can also take comfort in the fact that in this modern age, birthrates are down, access to education is higher than it ever was........neanderthals like johny negligent will be a rarity in society. perhaps i should agitate for the dissolution of the family unit as method of child rearing! maybe do it kibbutz style! the state/npo can raise em

:D
 
i have babysat for a friend of my parent's kids and so has my little sister but she is 17 and even so WAY more mature than i am

they are 5 and 7 respectivly so its not to hard, just a case of making sure they dont wreck her house and that no one trys to kidnap them but i wouldnt want to babysit a friends baby. i wouldnt feel coumfetable cause i wouldnt know what it wanted (where cris and james are VERY vocal about what they want:p)
 
I agree that this was more of a trajedy then murder. If you see his other 12 children which have not been harmed, or it would've been mentioned in the article, it is clear that it was completely unintentional. I'm sure he feels the pain for his lost daughter, but imagine putting him behind bars for 15 years? That is 12 other children fatherless.
 
The moral of the story is that if you have more children than you can keep track of, you're bound to lose a few! Use condoms for gods sake!
 
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