If Jesus fulfilled the OT messiah prophecies..

Magical Realist

Valued Senior Member
...then why did the Jews reject him? Could it be he DIDN'T fulfill the Messianic prophecies of a king who would arise and conquer the nations that oppressed Israel? Could it be he didn't fit the bill for being the messiah at all? Let's face it. Jesus was NOT a savior of anything. He even wound up getting himself executed for blasphemy. Seems he had a narcissistic delusion he was God's special son and went about preaching the near end of the world. Was Israel delivered from Roman rule? Hardly. And 2000 years later everything's the same.
 
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I think you have it wrong.

You see the bible is two books,

Old testament = dark side
New testament = road to good or light

These stories are older than you have been taught, and there is a dual nature to humans, and the bible explains this in the two parts, i.e old and new testament. So there is no contradictions in the bible, just that your reading it wrong.

Jesus preached the road to good, but the jewish religion is just there version of voodoo, which is road to dark. All groups have there own version of the darkside, as all humans have a dual aspect to there spiritualist.

Thats why jews laugh at jesus, they think good is for sapps, and they think christians are a soft touch.

Jewish religion is no different than voodoo, and is dark. Christianity is about walking the road to good, or light. The jews laugh at this like i said, as they think the road to good is for sapps or retards.

Everyone hates israel today as they know its the darkside. They can hate me all they want for saying this, jewish religion is a form of voodoo. Thats all it is. It is no different than some forms of voodoo in africa or india. Those people in israel are secular and are practising the darkside of there religion.
 
I think you have it wrong.

You see the bible is two books,

Old testament = dark side
New testament = road to good or light

These stories are older than you have been taught, and there is a dual nature to humans, and the bible explains this in the two parts, i.e old and new testament. So there is no contradictions in the bible, just that your reading it wrong.

Jesus preached the road to good, but the jewish religion is just there version of voodoo, which is road to dark. All groups have there own version of the darkside, as all humans have a dual aspect to there spiritualist.

Thats why jews laugh at jesus, they think good is for sapps, and they think christians are a soft touch.

Jewish religion is no different than voodoo, and is dark. Christianity is about walking teh raod to good, or light. The jews laugh at this like i said, as they think the road to good is for sapps or retards.

Jesus was an itinerant doomsday preacher who believed he would become God's king on earth and punish all who rejected him in eternal hellfire. That's not a road to good or light. That's a dead end leading to intolerance and bitterness and hatred of all earthly things. It is the story of one delusional prophet and his cult followers and the sad story of their glorious Zion on earth never coming to fruition. Not one generation of Christians since then hasn't counted on the world ending in their own time. And yet here we are still 2000 years later--Christians still preaching the apocalypse and the vengeful return of their failed messiah. How many times does your religion have to turn out to be wrong before you finally give up on it?
 
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There is a dual nature to all humans and there spiritual beliefs. You can go either way.

Jesus was going towards the light, and its why i believe christianty is just the worship of the sun. The sun effects you in more ways than you all know probably.

The story in the new testament is older than 2000 years you can be sure, as the road to good, is as old as the road to evil.

Jesus is laughed at by jews, as they see christian beliefs as for retards, or sapps. They think good or whats right as being for retards.
 
...then why did the Jews reject him? Could it be he DIDN'T fulfill the Messianic prophecies of a king who would arise and conquer the nations that oppressed Israel? Could it be he didn't fit the bill for being the messiah at all? Let's face it. Jesus was NOT a savior of anything. He even wound up getting himself executed for blasphemy. Seems he had a narcissistic delusion he was God's special son and went about preaching the near end of the world. Was Israel delivered from Roman rule? Hardly. And 2000 years later everything's the same.

Who are you counting as "the Jews?" There were, at least according to the myth, several Jews who believed him. He was rejected by the establishment, not a people as a whole. And they rejected him because he demanded change that was not comfortable to him. I mean, do you think the Catholic Church would take kindly to someone suggesting they bulldoze the Vatican and turn it into a tent city? Even if he did happen to ride in on an ass, I can't imagine the Pope or his Peeps would listen.
 
And they rejected him because he demanded change that was not comfortable to him.

And what change was that? All the change he claimed was coming would be performed when he descends in glory to destroy those who rejected him. That was a blasphemous claim totally antithetical to Judaic doctrine.
 
...then why did the Jews reject him? Could it be he DIDN'T fulfill the Messianic prophecies of a king who would arise and conquer the nations that oppressed Israel? Could it be he didn't fit the bill for being the messiah at all? Let's face it. Jesus was NOT a savior of anything. He even wound up getting himself executed for blasphemy. Seems he had a narcissistic delusion he was God's special son and went about preaching the near end of the world. Was Israel delivered from Roman rule? Hardly. And 2000 years later everything's the same.

Err no.

As the story goes..

He was killed by the Romans for stirring dissent amongst his followers and he had created or formed a leadership of sorts, one that went contrary to Roman rule and control. Jews did not reject him or kill him. The Romans did. And crucifixion was reserved for those they wished to make an example of.

Jesus is said to have been executed, not lynched, and by the duly appointed governmental authority of Roman Judea. There was a hearing of some sort, and the official responsible for civil order and Roman peace and justice condemned Jesus. This means that Pilate found something so serious as to warrant the death penalty.

But this was also a particular kind of death penalty. The Romans had an assortment of means by which to carry out a judicial execution; some, such as beheading, were quicker and less painful than crucifixion. Death by crucifixion was reserved for particular crimes and particular classes. Those with proper Roman citizenship were supposed to be immune from crucifixion, although they might be executed by other means. Crucifixion was commonly regarded as not only frighteningly painful but also the most shameful of deaths. Essentially, it was reserved for those who were perceived as raising their hands against Roman rule or those who in some other way seemed to challenge the social order—for example, slaves who attacked their masters, and insurrectionists, such as the many Jews crucified by Roman Gen. Vespasian in the Jewish rebellion of 66-72.

So the most likely crime for which Jesus was crucified is reflected in the Gospels' account of the charge attached to Jesus' cross: "King of the Jews." That is, either Jesus himself claimed to be the Jewish royal messiah, or his followers put out this claim. That would do to get yourself crucified by the Romans.

Indeed, one criterion that ought to be applied more rigorously in modern scholarly proposals about the "historical Jesus" is what we might call the condition of "crucifiability": You ought to produce a picture of Jesus that accounts for him being crucified. Urging people to be kind to one another, or advocating a more flexible interpretation of Jewish law, or even condemning the Temple and its leadership—none of these crimes is likely to have led to crucifixion. For example, first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus tells of a man who prophesied against the Temple. Instead of condemning him, the governor decided that he was harmless, although somewhat deranged and annoying to the Temple priests. So, after being flogged, he was released.

The royal-messiah claim would also help explain why Jesus was executed but his followers were not. This wasn't a cell of plotters. Jesus himself was the issue. Furthermore, Pilate took some serious flak for being a bit too violent in his response to Jews and Samaritans who simply demonstrated vigorously against his policies. Pilate probably decided that publicly executing Jesus would snuff out the messianic enthusiasm of his followers without racking up more Jewish bodies than necessary.


And from page two:

Of course, the Gospels also implicate Jewish religious authorities—specifically, the priestly leaders who managed the Jerusalem Temple under franchise from the Roman government. Many scholars, including E.P. Sanders in Jesus and Judaism, conclude that the Temple leaders were likely involved in Jesus coming to the attention of Pilate. After all, the high priest and his retinue held their posts by demonstrating continuing loyalty to Rome. If they judged that Jesus represented some threat to Roman rule, they were obliged to denounce him. Also, it is not so difficult to grant a certain likelihood to the Gospels' claim that the Temple authorities were at least partly motivated by a resentment of Jesus' criticism of their administration of the Temple, as may be reflected in the account of Jesus overturning the tables of the money-changers who operated in the premises under license from the high priest. But Jewish leaders didn't crucify Jesus. "Crucified under Pontius Pilate" points to where that responsibility lies, with the Roman administration.


As is often the case with religious dogma, it all eventually came down to politics.



Balerion said:
Who are you counting as "the Jews?" There were, at least according to the myth, several Jews who believed him. He was rejected by the establishment, not a people as a whole. And they rejected him because he demanded change that was not comfortable to him. I mean, do you think the Catholic Church would take kindly to someone suggesting they bulldoze the Vatican and turn it into a tent city? Even if he did happen to ride in on an ass, I can't imagine the Pope or his Peeps would listen.

Have you ever heard about Jesus the Homeless?

It is a statue, of Jesus as a homeless person sleeping on a park bench. The identifying markers that set him aside as Jesus is the crucifixion marks on his feet. As a work of art, it is exceptionally well done and very very lifelike. It's reception, however, is the interesting part of just how people see or imagine a biblical Jesus (poor)..

A new religious statue in the town of Davidson, N.C., is unlike anything you might see in church.

The statue depicts Jesus as a vagrant sleeping on a park bench. St. Alban's Episcopal Church installed the homeless Jesus statue on its property in the middle of an upscale neighborhood filled with well-kept townhomes.

Jesus is huddled under a blanket with his face and hands obscured; only the crucifixion wounds on his uncovered feet give him away.

The reaction was immediate. Some loved it; some didn't.

"One woman from the neighborhood actually called police the first time she drove by," says David Boraks, editor of DavidsonNews.net. "She thought it was an actual homeless person."

That's right. Somebody called the cops on Jesus.

"Another neighbor, who lives a couple of doors down from the church, wrote us a letter to the editor saying it creeps him out," Boraks added.

Some neighbors feel that it's an insulting depiction of the son of God, and that what appears to be a hobo curled up on a bench demeans the neighborhood.

The woman who called the police had a very definite idea of Jesus..

"Jesus is not a vagrant, Jesus is not a helpless person who needs our help," Cindy Castano Swannack, who called police after seeing the statue, told WCNC. "We need someone who is capable of meeting our needs, not someone who is also needy."

Forgetting of course that their own religious text explains that Jesus was poor, a vagrant who lived on the charity of others because of his good deeds. To some people, Jesus will come back as a rich dude preaching against Obamacare and helping the poor.
 
He was killed by the Romans for stirring dissent amongst his followers and he had created or formed a leadership of sorts, one that went contrary to Roman rule and control. Jews did not reject him or kill him. The Romans did. And crucifixion was reserved for those they wished to make an example of.

Actually, or so the story goes, Pilate was about to release Jesus when he decided to put it to vote. Here's the verse:

Matt 27:24 "When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this Man's blood; see to that yourselves." 25And all the people said, "His blood shall be on us and on our children!" 26Then he released Barabbas for them; but after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him over to be crucified."

So to say the Jews and the Jewish Pharisees had nothing to do with it is simplistic imo. The Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah, and do so to this very day.
 
In the Old Testament, Satan was in the council of God as his left hand man. This can be seen clearly in the book of Job, where God listens to the advice of Satan, even doing his mean suggestions against Job. Satan is not thrown from Heaven, according to traditions, until Revelations of the New Testament. So when Jesus was alive on earth, leading up to his death, Satan is still in heaven in the council of God. Revelation is written decades later and offers a vision of Satan forced from heaven in the future.

When Jesus is tempted by Satan, in the desert, before he begins his ministry, Satan, still has the ear of God. Satan offers Jesus all the tools that the anticipated Messiah was expected to have. Satan quotes the old testament scriptures like a check list.

Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness

4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”

11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.


The expected Messiah, had a connection to Satan, who acted as an intermediate to God in the Old Testament. When Jesus does not except his offer, he fails to become the expected Messiah. Jesus was not in it for the money which was unheard of. Sometime after his death, Jesus returns to heaven and Satan starts trouble. Satan is thrown out of the council of God because he begins a rebellion.

If Jesus had accepted his offer to become the messiah of the jews, Satan would still be in charge of the earth with Jesus one of his loyal generals. Instead Jesus moves up the company ladder and Satan is demoted to the southern branch. Satan is no longer able to create the Messiah of the old Testament due to his lack of connection to heaven. In Revelations he approximates him via the anti-Christ. This guys loves power and money and loves to kick butt.

The second coming of Christ; Christ in a cloud, with his armies is the divine version of the earthy Old Mesaiah. He is different due to lack of Satan. In righteousness he wages war, not based on power and vanity like Satan's new anti_christ version of the messiah.
 
Actually, or so the story goes, Pilate was about to release Jesus when he decided to put it to vote. Here's the verse:

Matt 27:24 "When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this Man's blood; see to that yourselves." 25And all the people said, "His blood shall be on us and on our children!" 26Then he released Barabbas for them; but after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him over to be crucified."

So to say the Jews and the Jewish Pharisees had nothing to do with it is simplistic imo. The Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah, and do so to this very day.
The Jewish leadership saw him as a threat. When it was clear that people were about to revolt, the vote was cast. The Jewish religious leadership voted to execute to consolidate and ensure their power. The Romans wanted him gone because he had the potential to make people fight against the Romans.

He wasn't killed because he was the Messiah or they thought he wasn't the Messiah. He was killed because he stirred up the population and because he disagreed with and argued against Temple policy.
 
The Jewish leadership saw him as a threat. When it was clear that people were about to revolt, the vote was cast. The Jewish religious leadership voted to execute to consolidate and ensure their power. The Romans wanted him gone because he had the potential to make people fight against the Romans.

He wasn't killed because he was the Messiah or they thought he wasn't the Messiah. He was killed because he stirred up the population and because he disagreed with and argued against Temple policy.

"Mark 14:55-59 states that the chief priests had sought witness against Jesus to put him to death but did not find any, so they arranged false witness against him, but their witnesses did not agree together. Mark 14:61 states that the high priest then asked Jesus: "Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, "I am" at which point the high priest tore his own robe in anger and accused Jesus of blasphemy. In Matthew 26:63 the high priest asks: "tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God." Jesus responds "You have said it", prompting the priest to tear his own robe.[9][10][11]

In Luke 22:67 Jesus is asked: "If thou art the Christ, tell us. But he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe". But, in 22:70 when asked: "Are you then the Son of God?" Jesus answers: "You say that I am" affirming the title Son of God.[15] At that point the priests say: "What further need have we of witness? for we ourselves have heard from his own mouth" and decide to condemn Jesus.[9][10][11]

Thereafter in Pilate's Court the Jewish elders ask Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus - accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews."----http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin_trial_of_Jesus
 
I still have a problem with the phrasing "the Jews rejected him." According to the story, he had a following. It was the leadership that rejected him, not the Jewish people as a whole.
 
I still have a problem with the phrasing "the Jews rejected him." According to the story, he had a following. It was the leadership that rejected him, not the Jewish people as a whole.

If he had enough of a following, the leaders could not have continued to reject him. If he had a huge following, we would expect the story to demonstrate that. When it did become a huge following, that was due to non-Jews. There were many other claimed messiahs with followings. According to the Jesus story & according to history, Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish hopeful prophecy & did not seem even interested in it. We have no reason to suspect it was anything other than chance circumstances which led to all the bullshit about Jesus rather than any of the other messiahs.
 
If he had enough of a following, the leaders could not have continued to reject him. If he had a huge following, we would expect the story to demonstrate that.


I don't know how you define "enough," but he certainly wasn't a pariah. He had a following, so the statement "the Jews rejected him" doesn't apply. The story clearly shows him preaching and converting people. If no one listened to him, the leaders wouldn't have cared about him,

When it did become a huge following, that was due to non-Jews.

I don't know what that means. Christianity was a cult of Judaism. It could be considered a branch of Judaism today, really, since it's rooted in Jewish myth.

There were many other claimed messiahs with followings. According to the Jesus story & according to history, Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish hopeful prophecy & did not seem even interested in it. We have no reason to suspect it was anything other than chance circumstances which led to all the bullshit about Jesus rather than any of the other messiahs.

He fulfilled the prophecies in the story. In reality, he may not even have existed. I suspect "Jesus" is an amalgamation of several rabbis, before we even get to the obvious fabricated mythology. Like William Wallace.
 
I don't know how you define "enough," but he certainly wasn't a pariah. He had a following, so the statement "the Jews rejected him" doesn't apply. The story clearly shows him preaching and converting people. If no one listened to him, the leaders wouldn't have cared about him,

I don't know what that means. Christianity was a cult of Judaism. It could be considered a branch of Judaism today, really, since it's rooted in Jewish myth.

He fulfilled the prophecies in the story. In reality, he may not even have existed. I suspect "Jesus" is an amalgamation of several rabbis, before we even get to the obvious fabricated mythology. Like William Wallace.

The Jews rejected him does not mean 100% of Jews rejected him. No 1 claims that no 1 listened to him. Other messiahs had followings. They probably overlapped. All those other messiahs also were & continue to be rejected by the vast majority of Jews. The Jewish prophecy was not of a god, a sonofagod or a split personality of a god. It was to be a man sent by & empowered by god to unite the Jews & overcome their oppressors. Jesus did not do that in reality & not even in the story. Jews should be expected to know better about their Messiah than non-Jews.
 
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The Jews rejected him does not mean 100% of Jews rejected him. No 1 claims that no 1 listened to him. Other messiahs had followings. They probably overlapped. All those other messiahs also were & continue to be rejected by the vast majority of Jews. The Jewish prophecy was not of a god, a sonofagod or a split personality of a god. It was to be a man sent by & empowered by god to unite the Jews & overcome their oppressors. Jesus did not do that in reality & not even in the story. Jews should be expected to know better about their Messiah than non-Jews.

The vast majority of Jews likely never heard of him, or never got to see him, so I don't think that qualification is accurate.

Anyway, Jesus "fulfilled" quite a lot of prophecy. It's even said during the text of many of his acts, "this was done to fulfill the prophecy," which I think is kinda cheating, but it still technically counts.
 
Consider all things. I would say save everyone, but cancers, and scars exist. They can't be safe the cancer that is. So if Jesus comes he comes to anialate things. I wouldn't follow a violent God. So he will tempt with reason love and purpose.

Tempt - carry out justice on all things, make all things good and considerate.
 
"Mark 14:55-59 states that the chief priests had sought witness against Jesus to put him to death but did not find any, so they arranged false witness against him, but their witnesses did not agree together. Mark 14:61 states that the high priest then asked Jesus: "Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, "I am" at which point the high priest tore his own robe in anger and accused Jesus of blasphemy. In Matthew 26:63 the high priest asks: "tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God." Jesus responds "You have said it", prompting the priest to tear his own robe.[9][10][11]

In Luke 22:67 Jesus is asked: "If thou art the Christ, tell us. But he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe". But, in 22:70 when asked: "Are you then the Son of God?" Jesus answers: "You say that I am" affirming the title Son of God.[15] At that point the priests say: "What further need have we of witness? for we ourselves have heard from his own mouth" and decide to condemn Jesus.[9][10][11]

Thereafter in Pilate's Court the Jewish elders ask Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus - accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews."----http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin_trial_of_Jesus
The Jewish religious leaders wanted him killed for political reasons. He posed a possible threat to their leadership because he challenged them like no one else had. He was the revolutionary and they wanted him gone. It wasn't a case of 'oh he's just another nutbag, just leave him be' or a case of 'quick, we must kill him because he's saying he's the king of the Jews'. It was a case of Jesus having garnered so much support from people wherever he went and he challenged them, in their Temple. Pilate agreed because here was one guy who was making the Jews rise against all forms of established authority. And frankly, Pilate was known to be a sadistic man who was brutal towards the Jews. And here he was, presented with an opportunity to kill a Jewish upstart, and the leadership were asking him to. For him, it was win/win.

They never agreed or accepted that he was the Messiah, because he did not fulfill all of the prophesies. He did not fit the criteria fully as they expected it. But some people believed that he was and, as I noted, he had garnered quite a bit of support from the populace. He was liked. And he was not afraid of the leadership, nor was he afraid to challenge them directly and very publicly.

So it isn't right to say 'the Jews' did it or the 'Jews rejected him'. Many accepted him as the leadership rejected him. And that is why he was killed.. As the story goes anyway..

But keep in mind, how do you think Christian religious leaders of today would react if some random guy told them that he was the Messiah? The ultra-right wing Christians who are against giving charity to poor people, who are against any form of Government help for the needy or poor, who somehow or other seem to have this notion that Jesus would return as one of them, rich and living in an affluent suburb and fighting against liberal politics.. How would they react if a poor guy told them that he was the Messiah? To a lot of people, Jesus wasn't poor, wasn't the down-trodden and helping the needy. He will be one of them. Looking down on those on the poverty line. They wouldn't accept it if a poor guy told them he was Jesus returned. They expect a blazing chariot in the sky, wealth and gold and 'bling' (yes, I know, I know, I have used the word 'bling' and I too am disturbed by this)... The Jewish leaders of Jesus' time would have been exactly the same. Anyone who did not fit their expectation of what the Messiah should be, would have been rejected.
 
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