If everyone were born in heaven...

[SetiAlpha6]

If everyone were born into heaven in the first place, instead of on this earth, and if everyone could then experience God firsthand without any doubt or need for faith or belief at all, would that make a true "freewill" decision, either for or against God, more or less likely? If more likely, then why are we not all born there instead of here, I mean if God really wants to have a relationship with as many of us as possible? Alternately, why is He apparently hiding Himself from most of us down here?

Here on earth, how does having to believe in the writings and teachings of other men really make any kind of true "freewill" decision possible at all? To me, it just seems to make it even harder, if not impossible. Does it just come down to which of the many Holy Books and holy men a person chooses to follow?

Of course there are other problems associated with the idea of the "freewill decision". Like, is it really "freewill" when God is basically holding a gun to your head and will apparently pull the trigger if you don't choose exactly the right guy to follow and the right doctrines to believe in? But, NO PRESSURE!!! And, HE LOVES YOU!!! How is that FREE anything? It does not seem like it can be.

Or what happens if you are, heaven forbid, a moral person (you know who you are) and you know you could never bring yourself to kill your own children, even if you were personally commanded to do so directly by God Himself? Would your own morality and character ever allow you to make a truly "freewill" decision to follow this God? The Bible, at least, teaches in a few places that you must be willing to do this if you want to be a true and faithful follower of God. In that “Holy Book,” God seems to really like the people who are willing to do this evil thing. How can any moral person follow a God who would request such a thing and remain moral themselves?

What about all of the billions of people who have lived on this earth who have never even heard of the "correct" God? Whichever one that is? How can they ever make a "freewill" decision without having any of the basic information needed to make that choice?

I suppose I will be tortured forever for even trying to use the brain that God gave me.

Thanks

 

[lightgigantic]

If everyone were born into heaven in the first place, instead of on this earth, and if everyone could then experience God firsthand without any doubt or need for faith or belief at all, would that make a true "freewill" decision, either for or against God, more or less likely? If more likely, then why are we not all born there instead of here, I mean if God really wants to have a relationship with as many of us as possible? Alternately, why is He apparently hiding Himself from most of us down here?

suppose one was "born" in heaven and had the free will to accept or reject god.
Where would they go?

 

[draqon]

suppose one was "born" in heaven and had the free will to accept or reject god.
Where would they go?

back to being born in heaven anew.

 

[lightgigantic]

back to being born in heaven anew.

major problemo
the society of heaven is completely socialized around the direct perception of god - couldn't a resourceful, merciful and omnipotent personality come up with an alternative?

 

[SetiAlpha6]

suppose one was "born" in heaven and had the free will to accept or reject god.
Where would they go?

What if any person, whether they were born in heaven or not, had the free will to accept or reject God as long as they were in heaven? Where would they go?

I don't know! What do you think?

Do you become a non-thinking robot without any freewill in heaven when you get there? I thought God was trying to avoid that.

Thanks!

 

[lightgigantic]

What if any person, whether they were born in heaven or not, had the free will to accept or reject God as long as they were in heaven? Where would they go?

not sure if I understand your question
Why is there a requirement for existing in heaven to have free will?

I don't know! What do you think?

Do you become a non-thinking robot without any freewill in heaven when you get there? I thought God was trying to avoid that.

Thanks!

my suggestion was that being "born" in the material sphere was a suitable option for those who don't want to be "born" in heaven.
In the material world, spiritual life is merely optional (and even then, only amongst humans)

 

[SetiAlpha6]

not sure if I understand your question
Why is there a requirement for existing in heaven to have free will?


my suggestion was that being "born" in the material sphere was a suitable option for those who don't want to be "born" in heaven.
In the material world, spiritual life is merely optional (and even then, only amongst humans)

How does God reach more people by hiding Himself and by placing these people He loves in a material and confusing environment? I cannot quite conceive of doing even a remotely similar thing to my own children. I want my children to know truth, as much as that can be determined, and to know me personally.

 

[lightgigantic]

How does God reach more people by hiding Himself and by placing these people He loves in a material and confusing environment?

quite simply its not god that is interested in hiding, it is us that are interested in not seeing god.

I cannot quite conceive of doing even a remotely similar thing to my own children. I want my children to know truth, as much as that can be determined, and to know me personally.

children frequently leave their parents domain, not caring for their "truths" - of course entering in the material world doesn't make us invisible from god, but him being invisible to us greatly helps us become socialized around his non or partial existence

and as a further point, experiencing life in the material world eventually serves us the truth about god (just like a good way to appreciate one's parents - if they are actually deserving of respect - is to live with out them for some time) - just depends how many lifetimes we are prepared to devote to recalcitrance .....

 

[SetiAlpha6]

quite simply its not god that is interested in hiding, it is us that are interested in not seeing god.


children frequently leave their parents domain, not caring for their "truths" - of course entering in the material world doesn't make us invisible from god, but him being invisible to us greatly helps us become socialized around his non or partial existence

and as a further point, experiencing life in the material world eventually serves us the truth about god - just depends how many lifetimes we are prepared to devote to recalcitrance .....

I would love to see God. I do not follow...

 

[lightgigantic]

I would love to see God. I do not follow...

if we are not seeing a world in which god is absent as totally futile and bereft of any further activity or option, it tends to indicate our devotion to god is mixed with material desire.

There are 6 general categories

1. Utsahamayi - pride or having a false sense of one's abilities or self
2. Ghana Tarala - condensed-dilute or being very diligent in spiritual pursuits one moment and very slack the next due to a lack of taste/understanding
3. Vyudha Vikalpa - a type of excessive absorption in fluctuating determination about one's spiritual affairs without effectively doing anything
4. Visaya Sangara - losing out with the needs of the body vs the needs of the soul
5. Niyama Aksama - inability/completely powerless to adhere to vows/rules and improve
6. Taranga Rangini - delighting in the small benefits of spiritual life and missing out of the big benefits

 

[SetiAlpha6]

if we are not seeing a world in which god is absent as totally futile and bereft of any further activity or option, it tends to indicate our devotion to god is mixed with material desire.

There are 6 general categories

1. Utsahamayi - pride or having a false sense of one's abilities or self
2. Ghana Tarala - condensed-dilute or being very diligent in spiritual pursuits one moment and very slack the next due to a lack of taste/understanding
3. Vyudha Vikalpa - a type of excessive absorption in fluctuating determination about one's spiritual affairs without effectively doing anything
4. Visaya Sangara - losing out with the needs of the body vs the needs of the soul
5. Niyama Aksama - inability/completely powerless to adhere to vows/rules and improve
6. Taranga Rangini - delighting in the small benefits of spiritual life and missing out of the big benefits

Well, in this world we must eat to survive, which is material. We are therefore bound to the needs of the material body by our very existence. We are enslaved to the material until we die because we are material. No one can reach any of these goals perfectly in this material existence because no one is designed to do so.

The minute you think you have achieved it you have blown it because of pride. And around you go again, and again, and again...

So, who has ever acheived this? And how do you know any of this is true?

 

[lightgigantic]

Well, in this world we must eat to survive, which is material. We are therefore bound to the needs of the material body by our very existence. We are enslaved to the material until we die because we are material. No one can reach any of these goals perfectly in this material existence because no one is designed to do so.

there is a different sense to material
basically something is material when it is not used appropriately in the service of god
(the usual avenue is to use everything in the service of ourselves)

For instance to take the example of eating

If one eats foods that are offered to god to maintain one's body and uses one's body in the service of god, that is not a material activity

The minute you think you have achieved it you have blown it because of pride. And around you go again, and again, and again...

hence having a view of the nature of god and humility is one of the six symptoms of surrender to god, the other 5 being

1. accepting things favourable to spiritual life
2. rejecting things unfavourable
3. convinced that god is the ultimate protector
4. convinced god is the ultimate maintainer
5. depending on god with both desire and activity

Striving to get free from pride (as the spiritual achiever) can be helped by working on other aspects of surrender

So, who has ever acheived this?

quite a few, but it's not such a common thing

BG 7.3 Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.

And how do you know any of this is true?

I know some of it is true by application
IOW, by applying these things (with the proper understanding) I have seen myself improve and on top of that I can see others who are more advanced than myself, so the progress continues

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

If everyone were born into heaven in the first place,

Some here would argue that before you were born here that you came from heaven in the first place. You also knew God but He gave you a dose of amnesia before depositing you in the womb. Something like that, Adstar explained it to me once.

 

[draqon]

If everyone was born in life, on Earth...

 

[Adstar]

If everyone were born into heaven in the first place, instead of on this earth, and if everyone could then experience God firsthand without any doubt or need for faith or belief at all, would that make a true "freewill" decision, either for or against God, more or less likely? If more likely, then why are we not all born there instead of here, I mean if God really wants to have a relationship with as many of us as possible? Alternately, why is He apparently hiding Himself from most of us down here?

satan saw God, satan was in heaven. That still did not stop satan rebelling along with 1 third of the angels. So seeing God would not make everyone automatically follow Him. Adam and eve where also in the presance of God but they too where enticed to join satan in rebellion.

Here on earth, how does having to believe in the writings and teachings of other men really make any kind of true "freewill" decision possible at all? To me, it just seems to make it even harder, if not impossible. Does it just come down to which of the many Holy Books and holy men a person chooses to follow?

The truth and love of the message goes right to our core and we believe because of the message not because of signs and wonders. And that's the way God want's to attract those who love the truth. That is with the truth.

Those who mock or hate the love of the truth God does not want to force. But in the end He will deal with them.

Of course there are other problems associated with the idea of the "freewill decision". Like, is it really "freewill" when God is basically holding a gun to your head and will apparently pull the trigger if you don't choose exactly the right guy to follow and the right doctrines to believe in? But, NO PRESSURE!!! And, HE LOVES YOU!!! How is that FREE anything? It does not seem like it can be.

If you don't believe in God then God cannot hold a gun to your head. It's a basic truth. Something you believe is myth and non-existant cannot intimidate you. You can only ever be affected by the lake of fire if you believe it exists.

Or what happens if you are, heaven forbid, a moral person (you know who you are) and you know you could never bring yourself to kill your own children, even if you were personally commanded to do so directly by God Himself? Would your own morality and character ever allow you to make a truly "freewill" decision to follow this God? The Bible, at least, teaches in a few places that you must be willing to do this if you want to be a true and faithful follower of God. In that “Holy Book,” God seems to really like the people who are willing to do this evil thing. How can any moral person follow a God who would request such a thing and remain moral themselves?

So you disagree with God and charge Him with evil and injustice. So be it. That right there is proof of your free will in action.

I suppose I will be tortured forever for even trying to use the brain that God gave me.

Thanks

No it will be toucher forever for rejecting the love of the truth that was given to you to accept. Yes you used your brain. But the rejection of God comes from your attitude towards the will of God. Everyone uses their brains but two people can come to diametrically different conclusions when assessing the same message.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Myles]

there is a different sense to material
basically something is material when it is not used appropriately in the service of god
(the usual avenue is to use everything in the service of ourselves)

For instance to take the example of eating

If one eats foods that are offered to god to maintain one's body and uses one's body in the service of god, that is not a material activity


hence having a view of the nature of god and humility is one of the six symptoms of surrender to god, the other 5 being

1. accepting things favourable to spiritual life
2. rejecting things unfavourable
3. convinced that god is the ultimate protector
4. convinced god is the ultimate maintainer
5. depending on god with both desire and activity

Striving to get free from pride (as the spiritual achiever) can be helped by working on other aspects of surrender




quite a few, but it's not such a common thing

BG 7.3 Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.


I know some of it is true by application
IOW, by applying these things (with the proper understanding) I have seen myself improve and on top of that I can see others who are more advanced than myself, so the progress continues

When is material not material ? When LG says so. You make it up as you go along; your problem is that you convince nobody.

 

[Myles]

satan saw God, satan was in heaven. That still did not stop satan rebelling along with 1 third of the angels. So seeing God would not make everyone automatically follow Him. Adam and eve where also in the presance of God but they too where enticed to join satan in rebellion.





The truth and love of the message goes right to our core and we believe because of the message not because of signs and wonders. And that's the way God want's to attract those who love the truth. That is with the truth.

Those who mock or hate the love of the truth God does not want to force. But in the end He will deal with them.





If you don't believe in God then God cannot hold a gun to your head. It's a basic truth. Something you believe is myth and non-existant cannot intimidate you. You can only ever be affected by the lake of fire if you believe it exists.





So you disagree with God and charge Him with evil and injustice. So be it. That right there is proof of your free will in action.





No it will be toucher forever for rejecting the love of the truth that was given to you to accept. Yes you used your brain. But the rejection of God comes from your attitude towards the will of God. Everyone uses their brains but two people can come to diametrically different conclusions when assessing the same message.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

So when the end comes and sinners are cast into the fiery lake how can you be sure there will be no more rebellions in heaven. Stan & co BECAME sinners, they did not start out that way. So it seems to me that one cannot rule out future rebellions in heaven, And who knows, the sinners might win next time around.

 

[Orleander]

wasn't Lucifer born in heaven? That's what happens when you sin. You get kicked out.

 

[Myles]

wasn't Lucifer born in heaven? That's what happens when you sin. You get kicked out.

He was made in heaven. And you know wht can happen to marriages made there

 

[pharaohmoan]

I mean if God really wants to have a relationship with as many of us as possible? Alternately, why is He apparently hiding Himself from most of us down here?

I don't believe he is hiding but rather earth is an interdimensional backwater and our lines of thought are so far removed from pure thought that we are prevented from seeing him for this reason. There is another hypothesis and that is he is here on earth but is subject to the same physical laws we are, I think a community/cult in Damanhur also believes this. If so he would certainly still be a multidimensional being but probably would not be able to use his normal powers in this reality because it is so dense. My guess is that he's more used to manipulating energy on a finer scale.