"I offered it. You rejected it."

[one_raven]

This came up on this thread and I wanted to bring it here to stop hijacking that thread and to hopefully get some more responses.

I know that the bible does not say this, but have you ever considered that God turned his back on humanity when they killed his mortal son?

I can't help but consider that he saw Jesus as his last ditch effort to save humanity from itself and they not only wholly rejected him, but killed him and sent him back home.

God could very well have said, "Well, I see you have made your decision" and became a Deist God at that point.

I hope that makes sense because that's one of the premises of a book I am working on.

Christ was meant to die. It was this that paid for our sins, not Christ's life, but his Death. sort of the ultimate sacrifice.

See, that explanation never sat well with me for a few reasons.

First of all, what sacrifice?
He was welcomed into the Kindom of Heaven for Eternal bliss. What is really so bad (from Christ's point of view) of being crucified?

Second, where's the necessity?
If God wanted to forgive us our mortal sins, he could simply do so. Why would he have to send his son to die on the cross? He's omnipotent, he wouldn't HAVE to.

Third, where's the reasoning?
Why would Jesus being crucified absolve us from mortal sin? If anything, it is proof positive that we do not want absolution at all. The son of God holds himself up as a teacher. He preaches eternal bliss in the his father's Kindom of heaven. He tells people that there are a few simple rules that need to followed. The rules are a thousand-fold less complex than Mosaic law and requires very little more than simply bening selfless and caring for all others. He was preaching simple compassion and cooperation. Not only did he get killed, but his followers raped his teachings, completely distorted his truth and used his words as an excuse for committing countless heinous crimes against all humanity. It is quite clear that we flat-out rejected salvation and absolution, regardless of how simple and clearly intuitive it was. If anything, us killing him would not ensure entrance into Heaven, but decent into Hell.

On top of all that, God was apparently aware that Jesus was going to be crucified at the hands of the very humanity he was attemting to save? What's the point?

It makes no sense at all to me.
If you really think about it, doesn't it sound pretty silly all-in-all?
I think it does.
This is where that premise from my book came from - what seems to me like insoluable reasoning regarding God offering the "ultimate sacrifice".

What do you think?

 

[Lori_7]

If that were true then that would mean that God failed miserably...and God doesn't do that. He's omnipotent remember? He knows what will happen forever and always has. So given that, not only would He have failed miserably, but He actually would have set Himself up to fail miserably in the first place...making His endeavor into creation an exercise in futility. Why would He do that? It doesn't make sense.

The sacrifice was His body...His flesh. The wages of sin is death. Because He was sinless, He was the only one who could be offerred as a sacrifice in atonement for all of humanity's sin...the spotless Lamb of God. It's all about atonement. And that's why after Jesus died, people didn't have to offer up animal sacrifices and atone for sin in other crazy OT ways anymore. He was the ultimate sacrifice.

And you forget that He conquered death...He was resurrected. There's a lot to be said about resurrection you know.


Love,

Lori

 

[Leo Volont]

yes, it has recently been my contention that the Murder of the Messiah would have been seen by God as a Crime against Heaven. The Coming of the Messiah was to have brought the first Truly Divine Civilization upon the Earth. That was what the Three Kings of the East came and celebrated.. it is what they had seen independently of any Hebrew Prophecy, from their own Tea Leaves and from their own Decks of Tarot Cards. But it was all snuffed out in only a few years.

Now, I don't see Christ's Murder as a 'sacrifice' but I find it alarming that there are actual People out there who are dismissive of the Suffering that Jesus must have incurred that Day. What cold hearts of stone they must have to wish that kind of torture upon somebody and then say "What sacrifice". I shall let them think about it for a moment, and then if they don't acknowledge the Pain, then I sincerely hope they all get some kind of disease whereupon they can suffer as much as Christ did, that Day, so that they can really decide whether or not Christ endured something of a Sacrifice. It was, afterall, a Murder, but for whatever reason, Christ did not run away from it. His Bravery should be honored for what it was.

But Christ may not have suffered for our benefit. No. Christ may have suffered because God did not want Him to forestall The Great Crime that the Jewish Pharisees were intent upon committing. It would not be enough for God to Punish Humanity for 'intending' to Murder the Messiah, but for actually doing it, and for the gratuitious infliction of unnecessary Pain.

It has been said that the Institution of Venerating The Cross came from the Virgin Mary, Christ's own Mother. What could She have been thinking? For Her, what would The Cross be a symbol of? I think She would see in the Cross the hatefulness and depravity of Humanity, and Humanities hatred for all Things Holy.

For the Church, the Cross would be a reminder of just Why it is we are being punished and made to Suffer.

It HAS BEEN two thousand years, so my prayers anymore are "Isn't Enough Enough?" Bring on the Second Coming and see if we do not kill the Messiah this time. But after the 2 Kennedy's, Martin Luther King, Sadat, Rabin, The Philipino President, and Lord knows all of the other Righteous Men that the Conservatives have been murdering in order to install their fascist Right Wing regimes, I would certainly hope that Christ Come Again would come with something of a Supernatural Bullet Proof Sheild or He won't last five minutes, let alone three years after declaring Himself.

 

[one_raven]

If that were true then that would mean that God failed miserably...and God doesn't do that.

I think it would mean he tested us and we failed miserably.

He's omnipotent remember? He knows what will happen forever and always has. So given that, not only would He have failed miserably, but He actually would have set Himself up to fail miserably in the first place...making His endeavor into creation an exercise in futility. Why would He do that? It doesn't make sense.

I don't think that being omnipotent would necessarily imply seeing into the future, nor do I believe in pre-destination.
I make a case for that position in the thread I seem to keep linking to lately.

The sacrifice was His body...His flesh. The wages of sin is death. Because He was sinless, He was the only one who could be offerred as a sacrifice in atonement for all of humanity's sin...the spotless Lamb of God.

Actually, that's not entirely true.
Mary was born without sin.
She was the Immaculate Conception created as a pure vessel for God's son.
Most people think the Immaculate Conception is Jesus, but it isn't, it's Mary.
I was surprised when I found out.
Look it up.
The Catholic Encyclopedia has a pretty good article concerning it.

 

[Ophiolite]

What cold hearts of stone they must have to wish that kind of torture upon somebody and then say "What sacrifice". I shall let them think about it for a moment, and then if they don't acknowledge the Pain, then I sincerely hope they all get some kind of disease whereupon they can suffer as much as Christ did, that Day, so that they can really decide whether or not Christ endured something of a Sacrifice.

That sounds more like revenge than education. You reject the notion of forgiveness then?

 

[Leo Volont]

That sounds more like revenge than education. You reject the notion of forgiveness then?

No, that would definitely be 'education'... and anybody who thinks what Jesus went through was a picnic, a breeze, a walk in the park, and NOT a Sacrifice definitely needs to be educated.

Afterall, the Bible freely admits that Christ had spent the entire night before praying to God to cut Him loose from that Ordeal... He REALLY didn't want to do it because HE KNEW how much it was going to hurt. Just plain old physical pain... enough to scare even God!

Yet we have people, and more than a few... I've seen this argument before -- that Christ didn't sacrifice diddly... and I think the best refutation for such an argument is for them to feel pain for the first time in their lives, because obviously they don't know a thing about it.

When I was in the Army (I won't tell you which one) the soldiers had a phrase for it... that they desparately need to have their asses kicked. They need an 'education'.

Yes, I believe in forgiveness... but only after they admit they have been wrong. I'm pretty easy going once people agree with me.

 

[Adstar]

It makes no sense at all to me.
If you really think about it, doesn't it sound pretty silly all-in-all?

1 Cor 1:21-23
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,

God demonstrated His love and his righteousness not only to humanity but also to the heavenly host. He is justified in His position Not Just through being a God of total power but also as A God of loving kindness. Those who Love God follow Him because He loved them before they loved Him, not because He is all powerful.. even though He is all powerful.

If the execution of Jesus had been the final straw that broke the bonds between all mankind and Him then there would be no reason for God to allow humanity to continue to exist. He could have ended the universe right at the moment of Jesus death. The very fact that we still exist points the conclusion that God is not finished with humanity.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[water]

I know that the bible does not say this, but have you ever considered that God turned his back on humanity when they killed his mortal son?

I can't help but consider that he saw Jesus as his last ditch effort to save humanity from itself and they not only wholly rejected him, but killed him and sent him back home.

But it would be unfair if God would reject *all* of the humans that were to be born after Christ died.

So, according to your theory, we today are (or would be) rejected by God because of what our ancestors did.

This is an argument typical for thinking about humans in terms of the caste or feudalism system: you are what you have been born into, and you will die that. Your caste determines your identity and your personal worth as a human being.

Are we really to think about ourselves this way?

 

[duendy]

I realize this what i say will probably fall on deaf ears....and that as the saying goes: there is none so blind as them that wont see' but here goes

Therer was no 'God' who sent his 'only son' to 'save our sins' at a time 2000 years ago or whatever

it is a M Y T H....a story. an allegory. it is not reallly.....REALLY meant to be taken as actually happening, except by the authoritarians who devized it thus

Therer is absolutely no evidence a 'Jesus Christ' existed...of that many of the reports as written about in the N.T. actually happened.....And the very WRITING of the N.T is seriously exposed as not being as said by the writers

So

why are you sticking to believing this is the question i am interested in? After all, we are in a kind of modern Renaisance regarding the medium you are reading this in. The Web.......You have no excuse now to claim you have no other means to investigate the real truth and sources of myth. SO much evidence exists which seriously challenge the Christian myth as being actual historical event, yet you seem to stick by the Book

Also we live in a so-called scientiffic age. we have seen the Earth from outer space. we are privy to scientific explnations about reality that would blow the mind of any person living in biblical times. Yet still you cling to this archaic tale of some monarch father god sending his only son to save us

i have previousy also given a deeper meaning about it. that it is part of the older strain of mythology connected with GODDESS and her son/lover who was also representing Nature, and hallucinogenic fruit which inspires acommunion with Nature, ecstasy........
Yet despite this you cling to the tired old story

Why?

 

[The Devil Inside]

duendy....sheesh.....mellow out.

 

[§outh§tar]

But it would be unfair if God would reject *all* of the humans that were to be born after Christ died.

So, according to your theory, we today are (or would be) rejected by God because of what our ancestors did.

This is an argument typical for thinking about humans in terms of the caste or feudalism system: you are what you have been born into, and you will die that. Your caste determines your identity and your personal worth as a human being.

Are we really to think about ourselves this way?

Straight from the mouth of the Bible, yessir! The doctrine of original sin. Plenty of verses in both Old and New Testaments support it.

 

[§outh§tar]

Second, where's the necessity?
If God wanted to forgive us our mortal sins, he could simply do so. Why would he have to send his son to die on the cross? He's omnipotent, he wouldn't HAVE to.

The better question to ask is: Why did God have to punish Himself on the cross before He could forget about the sins of puny humans?

Is that schizophrenic behavior or what? Because you punch me in the face, I am going to stab myself in the eye before I can forgive you.

 

[Duroc]

The better question to ask is: Why did God have to punish Himself on the cross before He could forget about the sins of puny humans?

Is that schizophrenic behavior or what? Because you punch me in the face, I am going to stab myself in the eye before I can forgive you.

Southstar, think about it as making the ultimate blood sacrifice for mankind. Blood has been offered to the gods for millenia, even before Christianity. The Living God offered his own son as an act of love, as a gift to save sinners. Consider this passage, "And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also" (Luke 6:29 KJV). This is what God has required of us. The greatest of his commandments is to love one-another - not just your friends but your enemies. We were in enmity with God, like wetched outcasts. Through Christ, we become grafted into God's family as children of God (Eph. 1:5). God set a perfect example by making amends with sinners through his son, for God did not "come to call the righteous, but sinners..." (Mark 2:17).

 

[§outh§tar]

Southstar, think about it as making the ultimate blood sacrifice for mankind. Blood has been offered to the gods for millenia, even before Christianity. The Living God offered his own son as an act of love, as a gift to save sinners. Consider this passage, "And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also" (Luke 6:29 KJV). This is what God has required of us. The greatest of his commandments is to love one-another - not just your friends but your enemies. We were in enmity with God, like wetched outcasts. Through Christ, we become grafted into God's family as children of God (Eph. 1:5). God set a perfect example by making amends with sinners through his son, for God did not "come to call the righteous, but sinners..." (Mark 2:17).

Still doesn't address the question of why you think God had to punish Himself on the cross before He could get over the immorality of a relatively insignificant speck on the universe.

 

[everneo]

God could very well have said, "Well, I see you have made your decision" and became a Deist God at that point.

God became deist beofre that, it seems. When Jesus cried to God from the cross, He would have replied to Jesus :
"I told you these f##king humans are incorrigible, I made a mistake with this freaking free will, But you were hopeful of correcting them, see what happened, you are hanging there, come back as soon as possible, let the humans correct themselves"

 

[Duroc]

OK, sorry, I will try to address the question more directly. Man, in his fallen state, of his own deeds (alone), could not approach God, who is holy, blameless and perfect. Romans 3:23 states, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Under the OT priests offered animal sacrifices at the alter to appease God. However, these sacrifices did not satisfy God. It was a form of scapegoat. The only way to appease God, once and for all, was through the offering of His son, Jesus. God had to punish himself for two reasons - become no other offering was good enough (It was not just the way God choose, it was the only way to redeem mankind (Matt. 26:39).) and so that God could taste pain, suffering, even death for everyone (Heb. 2:9). God lowered, or emptied, Himself so that we may be raised, becoming the children of God. God wants a family. He wants children. Offering part of Himself was the only way for us to become eligable to join His family. Only God is immortal and perfect. We needed help to be accepted (welcomed) by God. His son, the mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), was this help, this saving grace, this gift to mankind.

Here is a short passage from Hebrews: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren (Heb. 2:9-11). God needed to offer his son for our sins so that we could be on equal footing with Jesus - brothers. In the same way that sin entered the world through one man, Adam, we find forgiveness in one man, Christ, who perfect and blameless like his father, offered his purifying blood so that we may approach God the Father without fear or shame (Romans 5). If you'd like more information please refer back to the mentioned passages. I hope this helps.

 

[Neildo]

The "God" of the Bible that interacted with people back in the old days is probably still around. But the "God" that people today think of from the Bible has never shown itself nor will we never know who "it" is. They're not the same thing. Our literal interpretation of the Bible has created a whole new persona of "God".

- N

 

[Brutus1964]

Jesus Christ had to come to earth and be crucified in order to attone for our sins. The principles of Justice and mercy demanded it. If you have justice then mercy is cheated, and if you have mercy then justice is cheated. Each must exist together but they are diametrically opposed. God gave us free agency and allows us to choose right from wrong. However, when he did that he condemed us to never be able to return to him because we are imperfect and will always stray. If we stray then he must satisfy justice, but at the same time he cannot cheat mercy. Therefore God sent his only begotten son Jesus Christ to pay the price of Justice, that way he can also provide mercy and each side will be satisfied.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Duroc: Man, in his fallen state, of his own deeds (alone), could not approach God, who is holy, blameless and perfect. Romans 3:23 states, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
*************
M*W: These were Saul/Paul's words. Paul being the negative vacuum that caused himself to writh in self-hate, doomed all of humanity with his selfish words that don't mean a hill of beans.
*************
Duroc: Under the OT priests offered animal sacrifices at the alter to appease God. However, these sacrifices did not satisfy God. It was a form of scapegoat. The only way to appease God, once and for all, was through the offering of His son, Jesus. God had to punish himself for two reasons - become no other offering was good enough (It was not just the way God choose, it was the only way to redeem mankind (Matt. 26:39).) and so that God could taste pain, suffering, even death for everyone (Heb. 2:9).
*************
M*W: Are you aware that when Jesus died/left the vicinity/fled to parts unknown, he was not a deity, and he was not a savior? It wasn't until about 391 AD when the early church fathers decided to agree with they favorite son, Saul/Paul, to give Jesus divinity.
*************
Duroc: God lowered, or emptied, Himself so that we may be raised, becoming the children of God. God wants a family. He wants children. Offering part of Himself was the only way for us to become eligable to join His family. Only God is immortal and perfect. We needed help to be accepted (welcomed) by God. His son, the mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), was this help, this saving grace, this gift to mankind.
*************
M*W: Duroc, you seem to be convicted in your beliefs. Can you provide evidential proof of this?
*************
Duroc: Here is a short passage from Hebrews: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren (Heb. 2:9-11). God needed to offer his son for our sins so that we could be on equal footing with Jesus - brothers. In the same way that sin entered the world through one man, Adam, we find forgiveness in one man, Christ, who perfect and blameless like his father, offered his purifying blood so that we may approach God the Father without fear or shame (Romans 5). If you'd like more information please refer back to the mentioned passages. I hope this helps.
*************
M*W: Well, Duroc, this same argument has been presented over and over on this forum. A lot of are still waiting on the tangible proof, but no one has been able to come up with anything beyond bible verses and incessant preaching (which is not allowed on this forum). We await your proof.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Brutus1964: Jesus Christ had to come to earth and be crucified in order to attone for our sins.
*************
M*W: Many people believe that this Jesus you speak of never existed historically. I've been researching this for a number years, and I can still not find proof of Jesus' existence. We have asked many of the christians on this forum, and thus far, none of them have been able to establish proof of Jesus' existence.
*************
Brutus: The principles of Justice and mercy demanded it. If you have justice then mercy is cheated, and if you have mercy then justice is cheated. Each must exist together but they are diametrically opposed. God gave us free agency and allows us to choose right from wrong. However, when he did that he condemed us to never be able to return to him because we are imperfect and will always stray. If we stray then he must satisfy justice, but at the same time he cannot cheat mercy. Therefore God sent his only begotten son Jesus Christ to pay the price of Justice, that way he can also provide mercy and each side will be satisfied.
*************
M*W: Since Saul/Paul created the myth of Jesus, his dying demigod savior, christianity was created by one and the same Saul/Paul. If Jesus did, in fact, exist, his own words were destroyed, suppressed and hidden. How does anyone know what words might have come out of Jesus' own mouth?