Humans are NOT evil

[Yorda]

Humans do evil because they don't know everything, so they do wrong. But originally, no one wants to do evil. One might say that it's all my fault, "I" am responsible for my actions. But who is this "me"? If I don't know I am, how can "I" be responsible?

Isn't there many wills inside of us? The will of the body and our own will. So, why would people be punished for the actions of the body?

The Self can only sit in this Machine and watch. We can only watch while the body does all kinds of evil things, because it's in its nature, it's evolution. The body is not perfect like the self, it needs to evolve. My will might be totally different from the one in my body, they usually don't co-operate.

Humans are "not really" responsible for their actions. They are responsible because they think they are merely a body, and if the body does something wrong, they think they are responsible. In reality, it's not like this. But even if this is an illusion, it's still real because people don't realize it.

The problem is consciousness. Humans always defend their person, since they think they are merely a person. For this reason, they are also "punished" if they do something wrong. We are punished by the real will, the higher self ("God") punishes us. It's not humans fault that they defend their person.

Nothing is our fault, we only THINK it is, and that's why it "is".

So, am I responsible for what I wrote here? Of course not! In the spiritual realm, everything has already happened and there is nothing we can do about it. Everything is predestined. My life is only a dream, but since I no longer remember it or understand it, this dream has become reality.

Our life is 99% fate, the remaining 1% is our hope guiding it.

 

[water]

But originally, no one wants to do evil.

Depending on what you consider to be evil.

A serial killer, when he kills, he quite likely doesn't think he is doing evil ... So he, just as well, "doesn't want to do evil".

One might say that it's all my fault, "I" am responsible for my actions. But who is this "me"? If I don't know I am, how can "I" be responsible?

How do you know that you are not?
How can you doubt your own existence?

Isn't there many wills inside of us? The will of the body and our own will. So, why would people be punished for the actions of the body?

Yes, this is the curse where the classical separation of "mind" and "body" leads to.

The Self can only sit in this Machine and watch. We can only watch while the body does all kinds of evil things, because it's in its nature, it's evolution. The body is not perfect like the self, it needs to evolve. My will might be totally different from the one in my body, they usually don't co-operate.

Then I'm sorry for you.

Nothing is our fault, we only THINK it is, and that's why it "is".

Sure. Everything is only in the mind ...

Everything is predestined.

Prove it.

My life is only a dream, but since I no longer remember it or understand it, this dream has become reality.

Prove it.

Our life is 99% fate, the remaining 1% is our hope guiding it.

And you have ... what proof for this assessment?

 

[ellion]

asking for proof is the epitomy of evil. we must therefore conclude water cannot be human as she is clearly evil. she may be a witch made of wood though, because wooden witches blame the curse of the mind body seperation for all manner of weird and wonderful things.

 

[Yorda]

A serial killer, when he kills, he quite likely doesn't think he is doing evil ... So he, just as well, "doesn't want to do evil".

That's what I was trying to say. Not even murderers were evil when they were 2 years old. Their genetics and bad childhood (for example) made them evil. So they themselves weren't evil, because they wanted no evil when they were small children. God hardens whom he hardens, and has mercy on whom he has mercy on.

Evil comes from the mind, not from the world. Good or bad can't exist alone. After good comes evil, after evil comes good. We may think that the evil things are really evil because we have to suffer, but they are sent to us by God so that we would gain experience.

One might say that it's all my fault, "I" am responsible for my actions. But who is this "me"? If I don't know I am, how can "I" be responsible?

How do you know that you are not?

I don't know who or what I am, so I can't not responsible for anything, and since I originally want no evil, every evil deed that happens through me, is a mistake. A man who kills someone by mistake, is not evil.

People want to do good, but it may result in bad things, because of their inexperience.

How can you doubt your own existence?

Because when I was a small child, "I" (consciousness) didn't exist.

Nothing is our fault, we only THINK it is, and that's why it "is".

Sure. Everything is only in the mind ...

Everything must be in the mind, otherwise you couldn't be conscious of it (you couldn't see it).
How could you be conscious of something outside your consciousness (mind)?

There is no external world, everything is spiritual.
There is no physical distance (separation) between anything, only spiritual distance between you and your infinity (the true self).

He who forgets his personal self will find the true, impersonal self (existing non-existence)

Everything is predestined.

Prove it.

The present has no duration, it can't be seen. A cause has no duration, it is also invisible.

For a cause to become visible, it must become past, and since the world is visible, the goal must already have been attained.

We cannot find the cause by observing effects. What is visible is the result of a cause. There is no visible cause.

My life is only a dream, but since I no longer remember it or understand it, this dream has become reality.

Prove it.

If you would fall asleep in this life and never woke up, you would forget this life and the dream would become the new 'reality'.
Nothing can be proven, but you can make arguments and you can make it sound rational.

Life is a dream within a dream within a dream within a dream... (repeating)
a game within a game within a game within a game... (repeating)

If you have played a computer game, maybe you have also played games where there are "small" games within the "real" game. And also that "real" game is a part of even larger "game" (life), and that life is a part of another life, repeating always, all the way to infinity.

Our life is 99% fate, the remaining 1% is our hope guiding it.

And you have ... what proof for this assessment?

Jesus couldn't do anything about it. He hoped, but Judas betrayed him because it was destiny. It was a part of God's plan.

Half of everything is luck. And the other half? Fate. No one knows the fate except the Father. The word luck is a product of our small understanding. Luck and fate are the same thing. What fate you have depends on luck, and what luck you have depends on fate. So none of these two exist.

There is only one truth, but there are infinite ways to describe it.

 

[yuri_sakazaki]

Hm...you sound like my mom with the whole 'I'm not responsible for anything' idea. If nobody is responsible for anything, doesn't that mean you can't appreciate them for their actions and love them or hate them or resent or be grateful for them? If it is not really them who is doing what it seems they are doing, you can't have any positive or negative feelings about what they do (because they aren't responsible, it's just lucky they happen to be nice/mean/whatever). That would be a sad way to live. And I assume you don't live that way, because it is pretty much inhuman. Everyone feels those things, and they feel them as a response to understanding and reacting to people's responsibility for what they are doing. Tell me if I'm wrong about your view on how you should consider other people with the stated take on responsibility (I'm not going to put words in your mouth, but this is how I understand it would end up being).

 

[VossistArts]

So, am I responsible for what I wrote here? Of course not! In the spiritual realm, everything has already happened and there is nothing we can do about it. Everything is predestined. My life is only a dream, but since I no longer remember it or understand it, this dream has become reality.

Our life is 99% fate, the remaining 1% is our hope guiding it.[/QUOTE]


How do you know anything about this spiritual realm? Youve been there and know it well then or are you just guessing? I dont care how strong your convictions are about something it doesnt mean its true. I find it so odd when people talk about how the afterlife is, or about spiritual realms or how what is apparent is an illusion and what is unapparent is real. You have a rich fantasy life I think. Its entirely escapist.

 

[Yorda]

I personally don't believe in this idea, but I just chose to defend it. As a matter of fact, I believe I'm responsible for the most things in my life. But what does my personal beliefs have to do with reality? The "reality" might still be totally different. But it never matters HOW true something is, if it isn't true for ME. All people must still gain the experience and knowledge on their own way.

If nobody is responsible for anything, doesn't that mean you can't appreciate them for their actions and love them or hate them or resent or be grateful for them?

Sure you can love and hate people for their actions. I'm sure you have already seen that. People still think they control everything in their life, and this THOUGHT makes them responsible, although, from the universal viewpoint, no one is responsible. It's good for humans to think they are responsible. If people feel no responsibility, they do not evolve anymore. But when people do not evolve anymore, it also means that they are perfect.

Later we will not see actions anymore, we will only see "God" behind everything. We will not defend our persons anymore. We will not have ideas like this. We will be impersonal. We will be unconscious. We will be ourself. We will be nothing, but we will still exist.

I dont care how strong your convictions are about something it doesnt mean its true.

Of course. What I say doesn't mean that it's true for you, but it's true for me, just as the things you believe are true for you, but may not be true for me. Everything is subjective, there is no objective reality.

 

[Baron Max]

If someone is interested in just how "evil" humans are/can be, consider what would happen if we eliminated all laws and all punishments for actions. What do you think would happen? Just how "evil" would humans become?

We're all like zoo animals ...confined in prisons of laws/police/jails/punishments no different to the bars on the cages of wild animals in the zoo.

Baron Max

 

[SnakeLord]

I dunno.. law or no law I wouldn't kill anyone I liked, (my kind). Animals don't have laws and yet they don't kill everything that moves, and everything around them. The available evidence would suggest we would be very similar to that.

 

[JohnGalt]

Sorry for jumping in, I must make this statement-

You assume the acts of the body are evil. You assume that the body is some detached, evil demon compared to the soul. Essentially you are insisting that a soul without a body would remove all evil. A soul with no body is a ghost. And, a body without soul is a corpse. As much as I hate the way this analogy is explained, they are one. The acts of the body, no matter how you look at it, are controlled by the mind. You cannot blame the body for its actions and hold the soul as perfect.

 

[Yorda]

What I say are not MY ideas, they come from my person, which comes from my body (brain). After a time I will no longer agree with what I say here, since these are not MY real thoughts. They belong to my temporary person. If these were my real thoughts, I would always agree with them. But I don't even agree with them while I'm writing.

You assume the acts of the body are evil.

You're mistaken. I'm not saying that everything that comes from the body is evil, I'm talking about things like killing. But according to this idea, the body is not "responsible" for that, since everything it does is a part of its evolution.

Humans create "evil" (the forsaken side of "God's" balancing power) in their mind. They judge right from wrong, but right (good) and wrong (evil) does not exist from universal perspective.

The soul (impersonal self) is "nothing", therefore it's perfect. Finding the soul is the goal. The soul becomes visible when the body is clean.

The acts of the body, no matter how you look at it, are controlled by the mind.

The mind is a part of the body. The self (soul) only "watches" (without eyes), and it's not a part of a specific body, but of everything.

You cannot blame the body for its actions and hold the soul as perfect.

Try to do something. Something hard.

If you can't do it, then it means that you (the soul) are perfect, but you body is not yet perfect. If your body was perfect, it would follow your will. By practicing, you can some day be able to do what you want. With time, the body becomes the soul. Everything in this world needs time, also the evolution the human body and psyche.

 

[water]

asking for proof is the epitomy of evil. we must therefore conclude water cannot be human as she is clearly evil. she may be a witch made of wood though, because wooden witches blame the curse of the mind body seperation for all manner of weird and wonderful things.

#%&?*@§)(/× !!


* * *

That's what I was trying to say. Not even murderers were evil when they were 2 years old. Their genetics and bad childhood (for example) made them evil. So they themselves weren't evil, because they wanted no evil when they were small children.

Evil comes from the mind, not from the world. Good or bad can't exist alone.

You contradict yourself:

First you say:
"Not even murderers were evil when they were 2 years old. Their genetics and bad childhood (for example) made them evil."

And then you say:
"Evil comes from the mind, not from the world."

"Bad childhood" is something that comes from the world, no?

Or do you think that according to "God hardens whom he hardens, and has mercy on whom he has mercy on." -- that this is the source of evil?

How does evil come into a mind that has first been pure, and wanted only good?

By this:
"After good comes evil, after evil comes good. We may think that the evil things are really evil because we have to suffer, but they are sent to us by God so that we would gain experience."

God is "testing us" in order for us "to gain experience"?
Why should we gain this experience?

I don't know who or what I am,

This is not true. You do know something about yourself, you do know how to live with yourself. Or you couldn't be posting this here.

You may not like what you know about yourself, but this still doesn't change that you still do know something about yourself.

and since I originally want no evil,

Already this gives you away -- You do know something about yourself: You know that you originally do not want to do evil.

every evil deed that happens through me, is a mistake. A man who kills someone by mistake, is not evil.

People want to do good, but it may result in bad things, because of their inexperience.

In a world that knows no forgiveness, and with a god who knows no forgiveness, no justice and no mercy, your explanation certainly aplies.

It just seems to me that you have elaborated your theory so as to fit the premise that there is no forgiveness, and that God does not forgive, knows no justice and no mercy. For indeed, in such a world, and with such a god, the burden of responsibility would be too much to bear. And therefore, you avoided recognizing this burden by defining humans as if they had no responsibility.

How can you doubt your own existence?

Because when I was a small child, "I" (consciousness) didn't exist.

I'm sorry, but this is romantic nostalgia, for one. And for two, development for you seems something that inherently brings evil along; thus development is taking us further away from our true selves (which are good).

But if God is sending us evil things so that we would gain experience and develop ... I don't understand. By experiencing evil, we are to come back to our true good selves?

Everything must be in the mind, otherwise you couldn't be conscious of it (you couldn't see it).

But this doesn't mean that all there is what is in our mind.
That's insanity.

How could you be conscious of something outside your consciousness (mind)?

I take I can't; but this doesn't mean that there is nothing existing outside of my consciousness.

There is no external world, everything is spiritual.

That's solipsistic insanity. Sorry, but it is.
It is only by holding the belief that there is something outside of us, something that we can rely on ultimately being consistent that we remain sane.

If you walk, and stumble and fall -- what do you think happened?
Do you think:
1. When I wasn't looking, I must have hit a rock or a root, this is why I fell and hurt myself on the bum.
2. The earth suddenly turned around and hit me on the bum.

Only an insane person would think that 2 happened.

There is no physical distance (separation) between anything, only spiritual distance between you and your infinity (the true self).

He who forgets his personal self will find the true, impersonal self (existing non-existence)

I don't mean to be cynical or offensive, I'm really curious: What do you think -- How come I have never been attracted to thoughts you present above?

Everything is predestined.

Prove it.

The present has no duration, it can't be seen. A cause has no duration, it is also invisible.

For a cause to become visible, it must become past, and since the world is visible, the goal must already have been attained.

We cannot find the cause by observing effects. What is visible is the result of a cause. There is no visible cause.

Contradictions ...

1. The present has no duration, it can't be seen.

2. For a cause to become visible, it must become past, and since the world is visible, the goal must already have been attained.

3. What is visible is the result of a cause.


Tell me -- what exactly *is* visible?
The present isn't, since it has no duration (according to you).
When is the world? In the present or in the past?

If you would fall asleep in this life and never woke up, you would forget this life and the dream would become the new 'reality'.

You don't know this.

Nothing can be proven, but you can make arguments and you can make it sound rational.

Nothing can be proven?
What is then, what exists?

Life is a dream within a dream within a dream within a dream... (repeating)
a game within a game within a game within a game... (repeating)

If you have played a computer game, maybe you have also played games where there are "small" games within the "real" game. And also that "real" game is a part of even larger "game" (life), and that life is a part of another life, repeating always, all the way to infinity.

It may be charming to have such an outlook. But it certainly proves to be extremely useless when it comes to a more real life -- when struggling for survival.
Do you think such an outlook would ensure a poor farmer to survive?

Jesus couldn't do anything about it. He hoped, but Judas betrayed him because it was destiny. It was a part of God's plan.

That was Jesus. In comparison to us, simple mortals, Jesus had special knowledge. Jesus knew the future.

We do not know our future, so we cannot say it is predestined.

Half of everything is luck.

Can you be grateful for luck?

And the other half? Fate. No one knows the fate except the Father.

Well then! If we don't know our fate, then we cannot think our lives are predestined.


* * *

Hm...you sound like my mom with the whole 'I'm not responsible for anything' idea. If nobody is responsible for anything, doesn't that mean you can't appreciate them for their actions and love them or hate them or resent or be grateful for them? If it is not really them who is doing what it seems they are doing, you can't have any positive or negative feelings about what they do (because they aren't responsible, it's just lucky they happen to be nice/mean/whatever). That would be a sad way to live. And I assume you don't live that way, because it is pretty much inhuman. Everyone feels those things, and they feel them as a response to understanding and reacting to people's responsibility for what they are doing. Tell me if I'm wrong about your view on how you should consider other people with the stated take on responsibility (I'm not going to put words in your mouth, but this is how I understand it would end up being).

Exactly! I wholeheartedly agree.


* * *

I personally don't believe in this idea, but I just chose to defend it.

Why are you defending it then?

As a matter of fact, I believe I'm responsible for the most things in my life. But what does my personal beliefs have to do with reality? The "reality" might still be totally different.

Then you are just saying that sub specie aeternitatis or sub specie totalis a single human doesn't matter. What is one human in comparison to the universe.

But I see no point in arguing about this. There is probably an interesting reason behind why people do argue about this.

Sure you can love and hate people for their actions. I'm sure you have already seen that. People still think they control everything in their life, and this THOUGHT makes them responsible, although, from the universal viewpoint, no one is responsible.

What does this "universal viewpoint" matter?

But when people do not evolve anymore, it also means that they are perfect.

Really? A permanent couch potato is perfect? That's an ... ummm ... rathe rislly notion. But okay.

Later we will not see actions anymore, we will only see "God" behind everything. We will not defend our persons anymore. We will not have ideas like this. We will be impersonal. We will be unconscious. We will be ourself.

We will be nothing, but we will still exist.

No, wait, you can't butcher logic like this. I mean, you can, but it ceases to make any sense.

Of course. What I say doesn't mean that it's true for you, but it's true for me, just as the things you believe are true for you, but may not be true for me. Everything is subjective, there is no objective reality.

And this is the solipsistic insanity I spoke of earlier.
Believe that there is no objective reality, and you become unable to function in this world. You become paranoid, overwhelmed by the amount of "coincidences" and "luck". Your notion of free will then truly becomes fantasy.

 

[Yorda]

You contradict yourself:

"Bad childhood" is something that comes from the world, no?

Bad childhood comes from the mind. There is nothing evil about the world "outside". Infact, there is no outside or inside, but we have to use these words because words belong to the world of dualism. Evil happens because of our inexperience. When we learn to control our body and emotions perfectly, not even outer happenings can affect us.

Man IMAGINES that there always have to be reasons to be happy or sad. It's not really the things outside, in the world, which puts us in a special state of MIND. Since there are no reason for man to be happy or sad, man (mind) has to imagine the reasons.

Man does not know this yet. Only after training for aeons, he can realize that whenever he has been sad, he has only imagined it, and then he unconsciously made himself sad. This is the reason why a man might cry and another man might laugh. What is inside of us, we project outwards.

How does evil come into a mind that has first been pure, and wanted only good?

Because the evolution of man (the body) is not yet finished. When man is a child, he is unconscious, he is not a man yet, he is not yet a body, he is the self. When he realizes that he is a body, then evil is born, since the body is not yet perfect.

As long as man identifies himself with his body, "he" (the body) will seek completion from outside. Man wants to unite with his complementary half. Which, if he is a male, is a female. It can also be other things, like food and different interrests.

But two bodies can never unite, that is the law of matter. Matter offers resistance. It doesn't matter how many magnets you put together, they always seek the unity. There is always someone else to conclude.

Man is not a body. The completion is within man himself, in his unconscious mind. By enlarging his consciousness, he can become what he really is. Man's conscious mind is his personality. The rest of the world, which he thinks is separated from, is his unconscious mind.

God is "testing us" in order for us "to gain experience"?
Why should we gain this experience?

So that we (the body and person) would find our true self.

It just seems to me that you have elaborated your theory so as to fit the premise that there is no forgiveness, and that God does not forgive, knows no justice and no mercy.

Sure there is forgiveness. It only depends on where you look at. The truth is one, but there are infinite ways to describe it. Don't doubt what you believe, whatever people say, it's not false. Even "fantasies" are real. There are many "religions" because all ways are true. There are infinite ways to the top of a mountain (the goal)

And for two, development for you seems something that inherently brings evil along; thus development is taking us further away from our true selves (which are good).

When we are small children, we (consciousness) don't yet exist. Thus we have not yet started to devolop. If the body has devoloped, it doesn't necessarily mean that you have. Devolopment starts when we realize our body. Then we realize how imperfect we are. In the end, we will once again become as children. Very simple.

The beginning and the end are the same thing. The circle is a symbol for the world. If we say that the beginning is on the top, you travel to the end, and you realize that you came back to the beginning. Man travels around this center as long as he realizes that he is the center of the world, and everything revolves around him.

By experiencing evil, we are to come back to our true good selves?

If we do something wrong, "God" will punish us ("evil"). This way we learn what way leads to the paradise. If there was no evil, there would be no way to tell what is good. Such a world wouldn't be "good".

How could you be conscious of something outside your consciousness (mind)?

I take I can't; but this doesn't mean that there is nothing existing outside of my consciousness.

What could there be outside your consciousness? What else can there be but your own unconsciousness? What does it matter if there is something since you can never find anything "outside yourself". You can only enlarge your consciousness, so that the things which seemed to be outside becomes one with you.

It is only by holding the belief that there is something outside of us, something that we can rely on ultimately being consistent that we remain sane.

By thinking that there is something outside us, we remain conscious. By limiting ourselves to a personality, we remain conscious. We have to separate ourselves to create ourselves. We have to have something to relate to. There is no light without darkness. That is the law of the visible world.

Humans always defend their persons because they're afraid of their infinity. If you want truth, never be for or against. Take no thought on who's right or wrong, or better than. This is the fall from the paradise, to see the difference between good and evil.

In the eyes of the Lord, there is no difference between anything. God lets the sun shine on good and bad people. He does not favour anyone. But if you want to explain God, you can to put human attributes, like jealousy, to God.

God is the unity which creates both the opposites in this world, and it draws them together again, to himself (infinity). God is both negative and positive, this means that he is neither. When black and white are put together, they appear as both black and white (neither black or white- grey)

There is no physical distance (separation) between anything, only spiritual distance between you and your infinity (the true self).

He who forgets his personal self will find the true, impersonal self (existing non-existence)

I don't mean to be cynical or offensive, I'm really curious: What do you think -- How come I have never been attracted to thoughts you present above?

Because you seek the truth on another path. You want to be a personality instead of your infinite self. What I say here are your own thoughts. I am you in a different form. You are me in a different form. There is only one self, which is within all things.

Consciousness is repulsion. Repulsion means that you want to remain yourself, you don't want to unite. People defend their various persons and religions because they don't want to unite with God. They love their persons. An atheist loves all atheits, because he feels to be one with them. Same with the theists. But "I" love no specific "way of thinking". God has no religion.

Tell me -- what exactly *is* visible?
The present isn't, since it has no duration (according to you).
When is the world? In the present or in the past?

Simple math: only the past (created) is visible. So the world is in the past. In order to see something, it has to be created. It must become past. If there's nothing to relate to, there is nothing. But we can relate to the world and ourselves, that's why the world exists.

The present is the creator (cause). The presence grants every atom its source of power.

The cause of something can't take place in the past. Time can't start somewhere in time (past), neither can the universe. When you observe something, it does not exist: it is past, hence it is created. You can only see what is past, created.

Time is a sensation of our mind, and so is matter. The presence is not somewhere in the illusion between space and time.

The world consists of motion. Imagine that you could stop every motion in the universe. What would remain? Nothing would remain because matter is only an impression due to apparent motion. Without motion, there's no universe. Nothing. Motion of what? Motion of nothing, in fact, since mind doesn't really move. It is always here and now. But it believes it moves, projected into the future to reach its goal of absolute peace (Nothingness), and restrained by a memory which it doesn't want to lose (universe). All energetic motions in the universe are only psychological ones.

Nothing can be proven?
What is then, what exists?

Nothing

That was Jesus. In comparison to us, simple mortals, Jesus had special knowledge. Jesus knew the future.

We do not know our future, so we cannot say it is predestined.

If we knew our future, there would be no destiny.

Can you be grateful for luck?

Sure. Nothing is impossible for you.

I personally don't believe in this idea, but I just chose to defend it.

Why are you defending it then?

The answer is "above". Because I "chose" to. I can also argue against it, I have done so many times. Since I (the real self) have no personal thoughts, I can believe in all things.

Imagine that you would believe in everything? What would your belief be? Nothing, of course, and that's the infinite reality.

But I see no point in arguing about this. There is probably an interesting reason behind why people do argue about this.

There's no reason behind it, but if you like, you can create one. Just like you created me and everything else you see.

But when people do not evolve anymore, it also means that they are perfect.

Really? A permanent couch potato is perfect? That's an ... ummm ... rathe rislly notion. But okay.

Everything that is visible is evolving, otherwise, it couldn't be visible. Atoms seek to gather together, in greater and greater atomic clouds. Lastly they (we) also form humans, which are finally able to remember and become what they really are.

We will be nothing, but we will still exist.

No, wait, you can't butcher logic like this. I mean, you can, but it ceases to make any sense.

Existence of something else than nothing is illogical. People can't accept it so they create "something".

"Nothing" exists!