Human Evolution; Out of Africa; and the Impact of Dogs

wellwisher

wellwisher

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This idea came to me several years ago. The idea is, what would have happened if the earliest humans had teamed up with dogs just before the human migration out of Africa? These dogs would not be domesticated dogs, which come much later. Rather they would be wild dogs that form a loose symbiosis with the pre-humans, but both remain natural with neither the leader.

Apes have certain instincts and they are very smart. But dogs can do jobs that can cross the boundaries of species (herd dog have to work with two or more other species in a chain of command making in the field decisions). If the pre-humans hung with the dogs, they can learn some of the ways/instincts of dogs and thereby become more than just an ordinary ape-man.

For example, dogs are carnivores, so if you migrated with dogs a higher protein diet will become the norm.

Dogs are pack animals and can survive almost anywhere. They have no problem migrating, pushing the issue to find food. They are also survivors and can be useful for protection and early detection of predators.

Dogs are pack animals with a chain of command in hunting and battle, even in unknown places. The apes are more territorial and it is different when have to migrate into other territories. These lessons could be useful for the pre human migration.

If the humans had been accepted with wild dogs, they would be forced to compete for alpha dog. This is how dogs assure the strongest leads because this leader has the most risky job; fighting the worse enemies. What would give the humans a better ranking in the pack, is standing taller to look bigger. If the humans are walking on all fours, hunched over, they get shorter and will be challenged.

I have a dog and he, like all dogs, like to chew on sticks. One day, I notice he made a crude wood knife about a foot long, out of a short fat (2in by 10in) oak stick, by chewing a point on one end. If you give the dogs sticks they are will make you knives and spears. Eventually the humans will use a sharp stone to copy sharp teeth chewing the end of the stick. Fighting with sticks could be practiced within the pack competitions where one is not trying to kill the other but only to wrestle for position in the pack.

This could all begin by some pre-humans finding a litter of pups. Humans are empathetic and pups are cute. Since the pups and the pre-humans are both wild/natural, not all the dogs will stay around nor will all the pre-human want to be near dogs. Some will remain. What happens next, is dependent on both the pre-humans and dogs learning from each other so both can coexist. An apex vegetarian and a friendly carnivore solve the food/territory problem since they don't have to compete for food and can overlap.
 
Dogs were domesticated about 14,000 years ago, hell let's say they were domesticated 20,000 years ago. Homo sapiens are about 250,000 years old. It just doesn't line up very well.
 
Dogs were the first species domesticated although precisely when is still a subject of debate.

Domestication Table
Animal Where Domesticated Date
Dog undetermined ~14-30,000 BC?
Sheep Western Asia 8500 BC
Cat Fertile Crescent 8500 BC
Goats Western Asia 8000 BC
Pigs Western Asia 7000 BC
Cattle Eastern Sahara 7000 BC
Chicken Asia 6000 BC
Guinea pig Andes Mountains 5000 BC
Taurine Cattle Western Asia 6000 BC
Zebu Indus Valley 5000 BC
Llama and Alpaca Andes Mountains 4500 BC
Donkey Northeast Africa 4000 BC
Horse Kazakhstan 3600 BC
Silkworm China 3500 BC
Bactrian camel China or Mongolia 3500 BC
Honey Bee Near East or Western Asia 3000 BC
Dromedary camel Saudi Arabia 3000 BC
Banteng Thailand 3000 BC
Water buffalo Pakistan 2500 BC
Duck Western Asia 2500 BC
Yak Tibet 2500 BC
Goose Germany 1500 BC
Mongoose? Egypt 1500 BC
Reindeer Siberia 1000 BC
Turkey Mexico 100 BC-AD 100
Muscovy duck South America ~AD 100
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http://archaeology.about.com/od/dterms/a/domestication.htm

Interestingly, even domestic dogs can quickly revert to being feral and pose more of a challenge than a help to our kind. Dogs have been put to many uses, including used as food by some cultures.

http://archive.archaeology.org/1009/dogs/food.html
 
This is a hypothetical scenario to show how many evolutionary milestones can be covered with one premise. I did not say or even imply these dogs were domesticated. Rather the premise was these dogs remained wild/natural but developed a symbiosis with some pre-humans.

For example, in modern times, field experts in animal behavior, can be accepted by wild animals, in their natural habitat. From this close contact these humans can learn about their subtle ways, and how to coexist in the natural environment. The animal does not have to be domesticated. It is more like the human is smart enough to become domesticated to the symbiotic needs of the wild animal. This is easier if you start with a young pup or cub since they will form an attachment for food and protection, but that alone does not change becoming a wild animal as it matures. However, one can adapt as these changes slowly occur.

Even today, many breeds of work dogs, if you don't train them properly, learn how to control their human.

Domesticated dogs would be connected to a different dynamics, where the dogs learn additional skills from the humans. It is not natural for dogs to be seeing eye dogs or even to herd types of animals they used to hunt for food. This where humans have become the alpha in the minds of the dogs. During the migration the dogs and humans would share being alpha, with the dog pack approach teaching the human useful survival skills.

As far as standing upright, I used the alpha position of being tall. But this could also be due to the needs of migration and trying to keep sight of the dogs who move quickly in the grass hunting for food.
 
In another topic, I posed the question; which is smarter, dogs or apes? Arguments can be made for both. I took the dog's side, since the ape side is already widely pitched. In terms of speciality skills, apes are able to abstract/think better, but dogs can do jobs that require independent judgments; herd, guard, seeing eye, tracking, search and rescue, protection, etc.

In a loose respect, the ape is analogous to a white collar animal while the dog is the blue collar animal. The dog has applied or hands-on skills, that can exceed the humans it helps, while the ape would be more the thinker and inventor, but may lack the ability to apply at the level needed. The ape-human could benefit by a hands-on typeof animal. A symbiosis could form since both bring something to the table, with the team more than the sum of its parts. Together their skill set covers an area wider than any other animal.
 
wellwisher said:
In a loose respect, the ape is analogous to a white collar animal while the dog is the blue collar animal. The dog has applied or hands-on skills, that can exceed the humans it helps, while the ape would be more the thinker and inventor, but may lack the ability to apply at the level needed.
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Some of the stuff you come up with just leaves me shaking my head.
 
I don't believe cats were ever domesticated.
h50DE7693
 
scheherazade said:
Interestingly, even domestic dogs ....[are]...used as food by some cultures.
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In all fairness, the Koreans, one culture that is known to eat dog to this day, although nowadays many Koreans keep dogs as cherished pets (perhaps the selfsame Koreans) started eating dog because for ages they mostly lived in small villages which were basically one extended family unit either by blood or marriage. So given that they were all family, neighbors and of a culture that discouraged thievery successfully to a greater degree than most other cultures, they had very little need for watch dogs. Everyone knows what a hard land Korea is. It was often the case that the villagers were on the brink of starvation. There were these dogs that insisted on hanging around. The children were hungry - what to do?

For the record, I myself find it unthinkable to eat dog. As the vegetarians say about all other animals, but I'm just saying about canis lupus familiaris: 'Dogs are my friends, and I don't eat my friends'. Also for the record, as much as I admire them, I am not now, nor have I ever been Korean. (You reincarnationists just let me be on this one, please!)
 
Horses are domesticated animals too, but people have been eating them for a long time. In fact until recently there was a horse-butcher in the small French town where I live. Eveyone is aware of the horsemeat scandal in the UK recently as well.

People will eat anything if necessary. Sailors used to eat each other if they were cast adrift - they used to choose the youngest and most tender - and there was the case of the plane crash in S America where the survivors ate each other. Apparently the flesh tastes like pork.

Sausages, anyone? (Unless it's against your religion).
 
But to address the OP. I don't think you're giving the naked ape, the featherless biped, enough credit. He's the most successful predator the world has ever known. He got that way from being so terribly terribly clever. While I'll grant that he may have taken note of the dog's awesome teamwork and social structure, he is surely smart enough to patent the sharpened stick on his lonesome. I think it was the dogs smelling roasted meat on the campfire that began the partnership. Overstuffed naked apes got annoyed at those sad sad eyes and cocked heads of the dogs' and threw them the proverbial bone. Sure, dogs can hear better than any of the monkey people, and have a sense of smell something like 45 times better than any monkey, (and a mighty fine partnership it was when the wolf's cousin and monkey's uncle decided to get together) but another attribute of this amazing monkey with the misshapen foot fingers on his hind-legs is he is the world's best long distance runner that there ever was. Lots of critters can run faster, but no one, but no one can out do him over a distance. Yeah, that old monkey man he can just keep running and running, stop a little while for a banana and a breather, while his apish cohorts continue the chase, and then go on running some more until old b'rer antelope falls in utter exhaustion. Dinner time. Here, doggy doggy! Hey, pup, after supper, tell us about that throwing stick idea of yourn again.
 
Arne Saknussemm said:
But to address the OP. I don't think you're giving the naked ape, the featherless biped, enough credit. He's the most successful predator the world has ever known. He got that way from being so terribly terribly clever. While I'll grant that he may have taken note of the dog's awesome teamwork and social structure, he is surely smart enough to patent the sharpened stick on his lonesome. I think it was the dogs smelling roasted meat on the campfire that began the partnership. Overstuffed naked apes got annoyed at those sad sad eyes and cocked heads of the dogs' and threw them the proverbial bone. Sure dogs can hear better than any of the monkey people, and have a sense of smell something like 45 times better than any monkey, (and it was a mighty fine partnership it was when the wolf's cousin and monkey's uncle decided to get together) but another attribute of this amazing monkey with the misshapen foot fingers on his hind-legs is he is the world's best long distance runner that there ever was. Lots of critters can run faster, but no one, but no one can out do him over a distance. Yeah, that old monkey man he can just keep running and running, stop a little while for a banana and a breather, while his apish cohorts continue the chase, and then go on running some more until old b'rer antelope falls in utter exhaustion. Dinner time. here, doggy doggy! Hey, pup, after supper, tell us about that throwing stick idea of yourn again.
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Sweating. That's what did it. Since we're more or less hairless we can sweat and stay cool, unlike animals who overheat; they can run faster but they can't run as long.
 
Are you all familiar with the throwing stick, the atlatl, the spear thrower? It's a zillion years older than the bow and arrow. I am including a link of a naked ape, who is so sophisticated he has worked out some sort of artificial covering to keep him from resembling 250 pounds of cheese on stilts, and he is forming another awfully brilliant invention of his called 'words'. Notice also he burnt some sand and mounted it to his face so as to see better. The atlatl, eye glasses, clothing... now the featherless biped may have run all these ideas past the pup to get his ass-snifffing input, but I am fairly confident it was the chimp and not the hound, that originated every single one of these inventions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VlOpwsj09c
 
Also dear wellwisher, as Scheherazade pointed out, the dog was only domesticated at max 30,000 years ago. Let's get wacky and call it 300,000 years! Problem: what you are calling 'pre-humans' were no more. Check this out: http://www.livescience.com/42861-early-human-campfire-found-israel.html.

So the naked ape may have been an ape, and possibly naked 300,000 years ago, but he was as human as me or you, and way more human than our resident trolls. Now Mr. Peabody may have accidentally mislaid a chewn-up knife-like stick he had been gnawing on - on one of his visits to three million B.C. in the WABAC machine, but we know he would never interfere with time deliberately.
 
The main point of this topic is this one premise can cover a wide range of milestones. This method of evolution is less about genetic change and trial and error as using the smarts of two apex animals to see the advantages of cooperation.

n all fairness, the Koreans, one culture that is known to eat dog to this day, although nowadays many Koreans keep dogs as cherished pets (perhaps the selfsame Koreans) started eating dog because for ages they mostly lived in small villages which were basically one extended family unit either by blood or marriage.
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I visited South Korea years back and what I was told by the locals, was there is a only certain breed of dog they eat. I saw one of these dogs in a market. It was not a pet but a food animals. The reason they eat this particular type of dog, is not for food, but it is eaten by the males for sexual potency. It is similar to rhino horn or tiger meat or viagra.

Also dear wellwisher, as Scheherazade pointed out, the dog was only domesticated at max 30,000 years ago. Let's get wacky and call it 300,000 years! Problem: what you are calling 'pre-humans' were no more.
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This confusion has to do with the current cataloging standards. I define pre-human as the humanoids before civilization, when they were more natural and lacked the willpower implicit of changing instincts for civilization. You can dress a farmer in a tuxedo and he will look metropolitan, but surfaces can be deceiving. I was cataloging in terms of function instead of form. I need to use the conventional definition to avoid confusion.

One important point I made is, apes are territorial animals. When you defend a territory, you have the edge based on a defensive strategy within familiar terrain against known predators. But when you migrate you have to constantly enter the territories of other animals. This is not same thing, since one does not know the terrain, nor is one familiar with the defensive strategies and sizes or temperaments of the home animals. You need different skills more in line with a predator. Picture a bunch of tourist crossing borders into hostile country after hostile country. They will not see it coming since the locals will be waiting to ambush them.
 
So, you still like your idea I see. Lets look more closely at your idea and see if it holds water.

wellwisher said:
This idea came to me several years ago. The idea is, what would have happened if the earliest humans had teamed up with dogs just before the human migration out of Africa? These dogs would not be domesticated dogs, which come much later. Rather they would be wild dogs that form a loose symbiosis with the pre-humans, but both remain natural with neither the leader.
Click to expand...

As pointed out the timeline does not match up. Another point is that dogs are decended from wolves and wolves are not from Africa, so clearly man did not leave Africa with wolves.

Apes have certain instincts and they are very smart. But dogs can do jobs that can cross the boundaries of species (herd dog have to work with two or more other species in a chain of command making in the field decisions). If the pre-humans hung with the dogs, they can learn some of the ways/instincts of dogs and thereby become more than just an ordinary ape-man.
Click to expand...

Humans as well as chimps our closest relatives live in groups or packs so there is nothing that a pack of wolves or any other animal is going to teach them about living in a pack.

For example, dogs are carnivores, so if you migrated with dogs a higher protein diet will become the norm.
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All indications are that the genus homo has been consuming meat for > 2,000,000 years.

Dogs are pack animals and can survive almost anywhere. They have no problem migrating, pushing the issue to find food. They are also survivors and can be useful for protection and early detection of predators.
Click to expand...

Yes they are useful that is why they were domesticated as long ago as maybe 30,000 years.

Dogs are pack animals with a chain of command in hunting and battle, even in unknown places. The apes are more territorial and it is different when have to migrate into other territories. These lessons could be useful for the pre human migration.
Click to expand...

You are now saying apes domesticated dogs? By ape I assume you mean before the genus homo? So you think dogs were domesticated > 2,000,000 years ago.

If the humans had been accepted with wild dogs, they would be forced to compete for alpha dog. This is how dogs assure the strongest leads because this leader has the most risky job; fighting the worse enemies. What would give the humans a better ranking in the pack, is standing taller to look bigger. If the humans are walking on all fours, hunched over, they get shorter and will be challenged.
Click to expand...

OK now you are saying that the dogs were domesticated prior to bipedalism? So that means dogs were domesticated > 4,000,000 years ago

I have a dog and he, like all dogs, like to chew on sticks. One day, I notice he made a crude wood knife about a foot long, out of a short fat (2in by 10in) oak stick, by chewing a point on one end. If you give the dogs sticks they are will make you knives and spears. Eventually the humans will use a sharp stone to copy sharp teeth chewing the end of the stick. Fighting with sticks could be practiced within the pack competitions where one is not trying to kill the other but only to wrestle for position in the pack.
Click to expand...

The oldest stone tools are about 2.6 million years old so you are now saying that dogs were domesticated > 2,600,000 years ago.

This could all begin by some pre-humans finding a litter of pups. Humans are empathetic and pups are cute. Since the pups and the pre-humans are both wild/natural, not all the dogs will stay around nor will all the pre-human want to be near dogs. Some will remain. What happens next, is dependent on both the pre-humans and dogs learning from each other so both can coexist. An apex vegetarian and a friendly carnivore solve the food/territory problem since they don't have to compete for food and can overlap.
Click to expand...

Human ancestors were not vegatarians. Human ancestors did not need a dog to teach them how to survive or to live in a group. If a litter of pups was found by humans or prehumans more than about 30,000 years ago that would simply mean that there was a nice supper for the group.

There is some evidence of wolf bones associated with humans from 100,000 years ago. This is the extreme. It is not clear if the wolves were opportunists that sifted through the peoples garbage or if there was a closer relationship. At any rate the, out of africa with dogs or dogs contributed to human evolution is completely unsupportable.

Your idea does not pan out. Why do you insist on sticking with it? Do you think that since you thought this up it cannot be wrong? Look at your idea logically and in the context of all that we know and then abandon it as incorrect.
 
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