How not to experience.....

[Doreen]

I thought this was a good exchange....

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr
Maybe you should look up the difference between faith (religion-style) and belief that what you're doing scientifically (or indeed in real life) has some validity.

Originally Posted by stateofmind

Faith as I understand it is setting aside judgement until you see something through. In the case of religion it would be believing that God exists (even though you don't know) in order to sincerely explore the possibility.

I am going to set aside the specific use of the word faith here, I would probably use another word.

This response by stateofmind is similar to something I have been thinking about today (again).

We/our minds can have certain experiences.
If we start having an experience - let's say for 3 seconds - and at that moment begin analyzing - this will, in at least certain cases
discontinue an experience.
This break may also keep us from experiencing qualitatively different phenomena.

You can think of learning how to swim the crawl or how to deal with pain in long distance running or how to sing or how one meditates
and so on
and see that having only short immersion periods before you start trying to analyze what you are doing and what your experience might 'really' be or whatever is counterproductive.

Of course in the examples I gave above it is generally good, at some point, to have time of reflection and analytical thinking. However learning will go faster if one extends the non-analytical periods - when you are not focused on verbal mental activity.

I think most people cut off anomalous experiences rather quickly. Whether they are consciously engaged in something like meditation or walking in the woods or lying in the dark - as a few examples - or they are simply suddenly experience something anomalous - a phenomenon outside of what they consider possible - the mind leaps in and tries to quickly assuage the anxiety around this by finding alternative explanations.

This not only breaks the experience in many cases, but it also stops the experience from building.

Often skeptics think they know what other people's anomalous, 'supernatural', religious experiences are and that they would not be fooled by them.

But they don't know what these experiences are like and they do not know if they 'explanations' fit at all.

 

[scifes]

awesome thread.
but in essence, here:

This not only breaks the experience in many cases, but it also stops the experience from building.

while you were right, that pausing to analyze the experience foils your experience from being comprehensive and complete, and hence the result you judge it with will be flawed and wrong.., untrue to said experience.

but..,
what if there were certain small details, which if not noticed in the begining, and let to grow and "build" upon each other, won't be noticeable if the whole batch was analyzed in the end as a whole.

i mean, is religious experience like a rollocoaster, you've gotta zoom through it with no stop? or a playing symphony, you've gotta replay each bit a thousand times before judging its perfection??

 

[wynn]

i mean, is religious experience like a rollocoaster, you've gotta zoom through it with no stop? or a playing symphony, you've gotta replay each bit a thousand times before judging its perfection??

If there is no authoritative method prescribed for the analysis of said religious experience (or any experience really), then there is little point in analyzing it.

And this is the problem: Some people will set themselves up for particular (religious) experiences, apply the instructions given to them - but then judge the results by some criteria that is extraneous to the system from which those instructions came.

Like setting up an experiment in biology, but then applying sociological criteria to measure the results, while still claiming it was an experiment in biology.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Often skeptics think they know what other people's anomalous, 'supernatural', religious experiences are and that they would not be fooled by them.

But they don't know what these experiences are like and they do not know if they 'explanations' fit at all.

Might as well get rid of all the psychologists and psychiatrists in the world. Won't be needing them. Let's open the doors to the insane asylums and let them loose....I think there's a few Christs and Napoleons in that bunch.

No more delusional thinking...... everyone is normal. Let us experience visions, hear voices, and enter other dimensions. This is starting to sound like 60's philosophy all over again sans drugs. At least the hallucinations won't wear off because they're permanent for the mentally ill who receive no help.

Someone needs to be the skeptic here Doreen. You being the professional ought to know that some people's experiences cross the line of normalcy. In fact there are plenty who outwardly exhibit abnormal behavior. The truly insane seek no explanations for their malady. Surely those professionals who deal with the disturbed on a daily basis are well equipped to pass credible judgment on the afflicted.

You would also know that almost everyone at one time or another experiences something unusual and many of those are able to discard obvious delusional thoughts and escape back to reality. Religious experience can and does lead to compulsivity. Compelled to seek an unearthly meaning for which there is none.

 

[scifes]

guess PE's atheistic rollocoaster has no breaks then.."SOMEONE HAS TO BE THE SKEPTIC!!" he screams waving his arms in the air..

....

as for signal, didn't quite get you buddy..

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

guess PE's atheistic rollocoaster has no breaks then.."SOMEONE HAS TO BE THE SKEPTIC!!" he screams waving his arms in the air.

The least you can do is quote me correctly...

Someone needs to be the skeptic

 

[scifes]

The least you can do is quote me correctly...

and the difference is?

 

[Doreen]

Might as well get rid of all the psychologists and psychiatrists in the world. Won't be needing them. Let's open the doors to the insane asylums and let them loose....I think there's a few Christs and Napoleons in that bunch.

First - again, belief will not get you into a mental asylum. Behavior combined or not with certain beliefs will. You can believe you are Christ as long as you go to and do your work, take care of your hygiene and manage to be minimally social. It is a common misconception that committal arises from beliefs.

No more delusional thinking...... everyone is normal. Let us experience visions, hear voices, and enter other dimensions. This is starting to sound like 60's philosophy all over again sans drugs. At least the hallucinations won't wear off because they're permanent for the mentally ill who receive no help.

Second, you are lumping all non-conventional beliefs together. If these are mad, all of them must be mad, so judge the whole lot.

Someone needs to be the skeptic here Doreen.

Oh, but I am being skeptical. I am being skeptical about the ability of people to judge experiences they know nothing about.

You being the professional ought to know that some people's experiences cross the line of normalcy. In fact there are plenty who outwardly exhibit abnormal behavior. The truly insane seek no explanations for their malady. Surely those professionals who deal with the disturbed on a daily basis are well equipped to pass credible judgment on the afflicted.

normal and abnormal are poor criteria. People have all sorts of abnormal skills and experiences. Some of the former are useful and some of the latter are not hallucinations. And take a good hard look at normal. As far as I can tell normal ideas of reality are wildly deluded. Come at this normality from any angle you like: from science, from political analysis, from cross cultural approaches – anthropology, that is – and normal (which varies wildly, by the way) comes off at the most neutral as highly filtered and subjective and more accurately as highly deluded.

You would also know that almost everyone at one time or another experiences something unusual and many of those are able to discard obvious delusional thoughts and escape back to reality.

I would guess that they are escaping, as you say, but from portions of reality that make them anxious. Humans do that. Their paradigms are more important than reality. Fear cuts two ways here.

Religious experience can and does lead to compulsivity. Compelled to seek an unearthly meaning for which there is none.

Or compelled to have the control offered by a primarily dead and completely meaningless universe that can be interacted with and controlled as if it were a mechanism. Psychological explanations for the attractions of paradigms cut both ways also.

You really haven’t addressed my post. You have merely present concerns about what you assume it will lead to and hypotheses about what is really going on. IOW you see certain consequences as necessary if we allow what I said to be true. I don’t think you are correct about the consequences and my first point above is part of the explanation. But more importantly it begs the question. And then your hypotheses are merely that.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Often skeptics think they know what other people's anomalous, 'supernatural', religious experiences are and that they would not be fooled by them.

But they don't know what these experiences are like and they do not know if they 'explanations' fit at all.

I have trouble with the above

A good thing for anyone to remember is that there are people who have experienced something similar or even identical. You are not alone in your tribulations.

Thus my reference to professionals in previous post.

 

[Doreen]

I have trouble with the above

Well, my last 'they' should have been 'their'.

A good thing for anyone to remember is that there are people who have experienced something similar or even identical. You are not alone in your tribulations.

This will need some filling out. And 'tribulations' is an assumption on your part.

Thus my reference to professionals in previous post.

And....?

I did respond to most of your points.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

This will need some filling out. And 'tribulations' is an assumption on your part.And....?

The realization that you are not alone in your experience should mitigate the emotional affect of it. Knowing that other people have experienced something similar or identical should make it easier to seek consultation with people who deal with such things on a regular basis. IOW it helps to talk with someone who is familiar with your experience.

By tribulations I was referring to being seriously distressed by the experience to the point where it becomes a health threat. Again, if you have a health problem then go see a pro.

 

[Doreen]

The realization that you are not alone in your experience should mitigate the emotional affect of it. Knowing that other people have experienced something similar or identical should make it easier to seek consultation with people who deal with such things on a regular basis. IOW it helps to talk with someone who is familiar with your experience.

Many people who have anomalous experiences speak to other people who have them. If they are in pain or having tribulations, of course they can speak to professionals, just like anyone who views their experiences as problematic. Those who don't are likely to speak to other people who don't view the experiences as problematic: iow people in the same religion, people who have had similar experiences whether spiritual or what gets called 'supernatural', etc.

By tribulations I was referring to being seriously distressed by the experience to the point where it becomes a health threat. Again, if you have a health problem then go see a pro.

Sure, OK.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Many people who have anomalous experiences speak to other people who have them. If they are in pain or having tribulations, of course they can speak to professionals, just like anyone who views their experiences as problematic. Those who don't are likely to speak to other people who don't view the experiences as problematic: iow people in the same religion, people who have had similar experiences whether spiritual or what gets called 'supernatural', etc.

So I guess the only questions are: Who can give you the best explanation? What answer would you like to hear?

 

[Doreen]

So I guess the only questions are: Who can give you the best explanation? What answer would you like to hear?

I am assuming you mean the 'general' you. And then, of course, it depends.

But in most instances committing someone - going back to your first response - is off the table. Someone's safety needs to be on the line. At least for a forced committal. Voluntary is another issue.

But for people not experiencing some phenomenon - religious, spiritual, etc. - generally there is little need to take a stand: iow to judge the person's interpretation, to state it is false.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

But for people not experiencing some phenomenon - religious, spiritual, etc. - generally there is little need to take a stand: iow to judge the person's interpretation, to state it is false.

I think it is wrong to assume that not all people experience some phenomenon, religious or paranormal.

I've twice had occasion to talk with God, once in a self induced mind altered state and again in an unconscious state as the result of an accident. Excellent conversations both times, yet I was not overwhelmed by it. Without giving too much away, let's say I had help, but not in the conventional sense. I am no different now then I was before the experiences occurred.

Even without being under the influence or without head trauma, I have seen things, I have heard things, & I have imagined things. That last one is important because it's something we all do. There are reasonable explanations, usually physiological, that affect the psychology.

 

[Doreen]

I think it is wrong to assume that not all people experience some phenomenon, religious or paranormal.

I'm not assuming they don't, I am believing those who say they don't. It is true there are those who have some experiences and in a variety of ways explain these away as something other that what religious people, for example, explain them as.

I've twice had occasion to talk with God, once in a self induced mind altered state and again in an unconscious state as the result of an accident. Excellent conversations both times, yet I was not overwhelmed by it. Without giving too much away, let's say I had help, but not in the conventional sense. I am no different now then I was before the experiences occurred.

Even without being under the influence or without head trauma, I have seen things, I have heard things, & I have imagined things. That last one is important because it's something we all do. There are reasonable explanations, usually physiological, that affect the psychology.

But you have no idea if your experiences are caused by the same things that other people's were caused by or if they were even the same kinds of experiences, in degree or various qualities. You are assume that because it sounds similar - to you - it is the same. And so since you are sure you are correct about your interpretation of your experiences, you are correct about theirs. This is, well, presumptuous.

Since you don't know, unless you are claiming something very like psychic ability if you say you do, it seems best not to judge and try to give them your interpretation, one based on your own experiences and interpretations - and perhaps emotional needs.

Unless it is important to you, for some reason, that no one interprets their experiences differently from how you think you would.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

I
But you have no idea if your experiences are caused by the same things that other people's were caused by or if they were even the same kinds of experiences, in degree or various qualities. You are assume that because it sounds similar - to you - it is the same. And so since you are sure you are correct about your interpretation of your experiences, you are correct about theirs. This is, well, presumptuous.

The experiences are the same. I not talking about interpretation but why they occur. The choice is to know why it happened or what does it mean? If your penchant is to interpret then you have done yourself a disservice. IMHO it is more important to find a reasonable explanation for the cause of your experience or else a pretentious life is staring one in the face.

 

[Doreen]

The experiences are the same.

you cannot know this, unless you are claiming to be psychic. People have very different ways of describing what seem to professionals to be the same or similar experiences: depression for example is described radically differently by different individuals. Let alone anomalous experiences. Again, you are assuming that you know what these other people are experiencing, but you don't. The words people choose, the amount of affect they use, the images they use, etc., all vary radically over even everday experiences. Ask emergency room doctors. Or teachers. Yet, you know.

I not talking about interpretation but why they occur. The choice is to know why it happened or what does it mean? If your penchant is to interpret then you have done yourself a disservice.

Let me tell you many professionals will interpret the experiences of others, so if this is what you want avoided, avoid professionals. Some are very cautious, most are not.

IMHO it is more important to find a reasonable explanation for the cause of your experience or else a pretentious life is staring one in the face.

You generally load the words to bias them towards, again, YOUR interpretation. Here 'pretentious'.

Your posts constitute a claim to read other people's minds. You think you know what other people are experiencing and you think they should have your interpretation of those experiences. This is essentially an effort to convert.

I don't know what you experienced when you experienced something like talking to God. And I will not tell you what that was. I will not try to make you think your experiences are something you believe they are not. You cannot seem to extend the same courtesy to other people.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Your posts constitute a claim to read other people's minds. You think you know what other people are experiencing and you think they should have your interpretation of those experiences. This is essentially an effort to convert.

I don't know what you experienced when you experienced something like talking to God. And I will not tell you what that was. I will not try to make you think your experiences are something you believe they are not. You cannot seem to extend the same courtesy to other people.

I do not claim to read minds, I do not claim to interpret. Personally I don't care what they experience. The one thing I am sure of is that the experience can lead to a paranormal claim, e.g. psychic ability, religious experience, etc. In that vein they are all the same. The important thing is to find out why and when I say that I am not talking supernatural but a natural. There are physiological reasons we experience visions or hear things that aren't there.

There is no interpretation involved in a mirage. It's a natural phenomenon. You see it because your brain is fooled into thinking its real. I could go on but I hope you get my gist. Anyway I am done with this.

 

[Doreen]

I do not claim to read minds, I do not claim to interpret. Personally I don't care what they experience.

OK, but it seemed like you were claiming to know.

The one thing I am sure of is that the experience can lead to a paranormal claim, e.g. psychic ability, religious experience, etc. In that vein they are all the same.

I truly doubt that. People can have a variety of experiences which they think come from the same source or stimulus or object. Some may be right, others wrong. This happens with everyday occurances that are not controversial to scientists or Joe Smoe. Ask a cop. People draw false and correct conclusions about all sorts of experiences.

The important thing is to find out why and when I say that I am not talking supernatural but a natural. There are physiological reasons we experience visions or hear things that aren't there.

That you think must not be there because that fits your belief system.

There is no interpretation involved in a mirage.

I don't know what you mean here. A mirage is a perfect example of interpretation. And so is seeing an actual oasis.

It's a natural phenomenon. You see it because your brain is fooled into thinking its real. I could go on but I hope you get my gist. Anyway I am done with this.

Yes, I understand the gist of what you're saying. And I think we are clear about our impasse.