How good was Mohammad's memory?

[WildBlueYonder]

Just who gave Mohammad the quran?

http://www.submission.org/suras/sura2.html

[2:97] Say, "Anyone who opposes Gabriel should know that he has brought down this (Quran) into your heart, in accordance with GOD's will, confirming previous scriptures, and providing guidance and good news for the believers."
[2:98] Anyone who opposes GOD, and His angels, and His messengers, and Gabriel and Michael, should know that GOD opposes the disbelievers.
[2:99] We have sent down to you such clear revelations, and only the wicked will reject them.
[2:100] Is it not a fact that when they make a covenant and pledge to keep it, some of them always disregard it? In fact, most of them do not believe.

http://www.submission.org/suras/sura16.htm

16:98] When you read the Quran, you shall seek refuge in GOD from Satan the rejected.
[16:99] He has no power over those who believe and trust in their Lord.
[16:100] His power is limited to those who choose him as their master, those who choose him as their god.
[16:101] When we substitute one revelation in place of another, and GOD is fully aware of what He reveals, they say, "You made this up!" Indeed, most of them do not know.
[16:102] Say, "The Holy Spirit has brought it down from your Lord, truthfully, to assure those who believe, and to provide a beacon and good news for the submitters."

http://www.submission.org/suras/sura26.html

[26:192] This is a revelation from the Lord of the universe.
[26:193] The Honest Spirit (Gabriel) came down with it.
[26:194] To reveal it into your heart, that you may be one of the warners.
[26:195] In a perfect Arabic tongue.
[26:196] It has been prophesied in the books of previous generations.
[26:197] Is it not a sufficient sign for them that it was known to the scholars among the Children of Israel?

http://www.submission.org/suras/sura53.html

[53:0] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
[53:1] As the stars fell away.
[53:2] Your friend (Muhammad) was not astray, nor was he deceived.
[53:3] Nor was he speaking out of a personal desire.
[53:4] It was divine inspiration.
[53:5] Dictated by the Most Powerful.
[53:6] Possessor of all authority. From His highest height.
[53:7] At the highest horizon.
[53:8] He drew nearer by moving down.
[53:9] Until He became as close as possible.
[53:10] He then revealed to His servant what was to be revealed.
[53:11] The mind never made up what it saw.
[53:12] Are you doubting what he saw?
[53:13] He saw him in another descent.
[53:14] At the ultimate point.
[53:15] Where the eternal Paradise is located.
[53:16] The whole place was overwhelmed.
[53:17] The eyes did not waver, nor go blind.
[53:18] He saw great signs of his Lord.

http://www.submission.org/suras/sura81.html

[81:15] I solemnly swear by the galaxies.
[81:16] Precisely running in their orbits.
[81:17] By the night as it falls.
[81:18] And the morn as it breathes.
[81:19] This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
[81:20] Authorized by the Possessor of the Throne, fully supported.
[81:21] He shall be obeyed and trusted.
[81:22] Your friend (Rashad) is not crazy.
[81:23] He saw him at the high horizon.
[81:24] He is not holding back any news.
[81:25] It is not the talk of a rejected devil.

I guess Mohammad just couldn't remember; God, Gabriel, Holy Spirit, or the Rejected Devil

 

[Roman]

Oh shit Randolfo! The human creation, religion, has as many flaws as its creator!
LIEK OMG!

 

[Ophiolite]

If you could do that small amount of research would it not have been worthwhile reading it?
Gabriel (the Honest Spirit) imbued with the Holy Spirit bring's down the Quoran, in accordance with God's will. That's the same God who is the Most Powerful and Possessor of the Throne.
Where is the contradiction? Where is the ambiguity? Where is the evidence of memory loss?

 

[path]

Uthman did not write it either from what I have found at most he gathered the various bits and pieces organized it and formalized it. But I would be interested in reading what makes you believe he wrote it.

 

[-Bob-]

Randolfo you doofus. That crap all means the same thing.

 

[§outh§tar]

It is not the talk of a rejected devil.

Mohammed was saying it was NOT the talk of a devil not that it was so I fail to see how that can be counted as a contradiction. The rest are equally flimsy.. its been a while anyway. Welcome back, c20 is waiting.

 

[Tiassa]

I don't see the problem. Really. Sounds a bit like the Metatron. (Most who know the name will be familiar with Alan Rickman's role in Dogma.

According to Davidson's Dictionary of Angels, Metatron is attributed variously:

• "greatest of all heavenly hierarchs"
• "king of angels"
• "prince of the divine face or presence"
• "chancellor of heaven"
• "angel of the covenant"
• "lesser YHWH"
• "heavenly scribe"
• "dark angel who wrestled with Jacob at Peniel" (Genesis 32)
• "watchman" (Isaiah 21)
• "Logos"
• Uriel
• Sammael
• "an angel before thee, to keep thee in the way adn to bring thee unto the place which I have prepared" (Exodus 23)
• "My name is in him" (Exodus 23)
• "Liberating Angel"
• "the Shekinah"
• "demiurge of classical Jewish mysticism"
• "the angel who led the children of Israel through the wilderness after the Exodus"
• "twin or half-brother of the angel Sandolphon"
• "the tallest angel in heaven" (with the possible exception of Anafiel)
• "the greatest, apart from the 'eight great princes, the honored and revered ones, who are called YHWH by the name of their king"
• "one who occupies the throne next to the divine throne"
• "'vox mystica' for Yahoel (i.e., God)"
• "Isaiah's suffering servant" (Isaiah 53)
• "Moses' Rod, 'from one side of which comes life and from the other, death'"
• "supreme angel of death"
• "mightier than either Michael or Gabriel"
• "appointed over Michael and Gabriel"
• "the angel who caused another angel to announce, before the Flood, that God would destroy the world"
• "credited to Metatron is the staying of Abraham's hand on the point of sacrificing Isaac"
• "angel of the Lord" (Genesis 22)
• "teacher of prematurely dead children in Paradise"​

____________________

Notes:

Davidson, Gustav. "Metatron". A Dictionary of Angels. New York: Free Press, 1967.​

See Also -

Arbel, Ilel. "Metatron". See http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/metatron.html​

 

[surenderer]

I don't know who wrote the Koran (Quran), but I know that the oldest copies date to about this period in a time when we could/should have original copies. The Koran, it seems, was still somewhat in flux during this period, not codified as it is today. I have read that the primary religious leader of the time in this region was Uthman, which doesn't make him the author but certainly makes one believe that the author must have at least had his approval - or it could just have been Uthman himself (I don't pretend to be expert at the history of Islam, so feel free to correct my ignorance).

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-start.htm

I guess a history lesson is in order here.........



During the life of the Prophet (saas) (570-632 CE)


The Prophet (saas) used to recite the Qur'an before angel Jibreel (Gabriel) once every Ramadan, but he recited it twice (in the same order we have today) in the last Ramadan before his death. Jibreel also taught the Prophet (saas) the seven modes of recitation.
Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him.
The verses were written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit.
Some of the companions wrote the Qur'an for their own use.
Several hundred companions memorized the Qur'an by heart.


During the caliphate of Abu Bakr (632-634 CE)


Umar Ibn Al-Khattab urged Abu Bakr to preserve and compile the Qur'an. This was prompted after the battle of Yamamah, where heavy casualties were suffered among the reciters who memorized the Qur'an.
Abu Bakr entrusted Zayed Ibn Thabit with the task of collecting the Qur'an. Zayed had been present during the last recitation of the Qur'an by the Prophet to Angel Jibreel (Gabriel).
Zayed, with the help of the companions who memorized and wrote verses of the Qur'an, accomplished the task and handed Abu Bakr the first authenticated copy of the Qur'an. The copy was kept in the residence of Hafsah, daughter of Umar and wife of the Prophet.




During the caliphate of Uthman (644-656 CE)



Uthman ordered Zayed Ibn Thabit, Abdullah Ibn Al Zubayr, Saeed Ibn Al-Aas, and Abdur-Rahman Ibn Harith Ibn Hisham to make perfect copies of the authenticated copy kept with Hafsa. This was due to the rapid expansion of the Islamic state and concern about differences in recitation.
Copies were sent to various places in the Muslim world. The original copy was returned to Hafsa, and a copy was kept in Madinah.

 

[surenderer]

I'm confused? Where is the original copy now? Why are the oldest copies dated to approximately 750AD?

I believe the two oldest copies are called the Samarqand MSS in Tashkent, and the MSS housed in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul and are written in the script style called "Kufic". And not the earlier style known as Ma'il or Mashq. This fact is the reason Muslim scholars date these manuscripts no earlier than 200 years after Muhammad died. (I don't pretend to understand all this. I got it from the link given previously.)

I know that some of the oldest Islamic Koran copies and other "relics" (for lack of a better term) where in a fire in Kashmir back in June (i think June) you could probably do a search to find out when exactly....I honestly dont know where the original is now though

 

[path]

I'm confused? Where is the original copy now? Why are the oldest copies dated to approximately 750AD?

I believe the two oldest copies are called the Samarqand MSS in Tashkent, and the MSS housed in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul and are written in the script style called "Kufic". And not the earlier style known as Ma'il or Mashq. This fact is the reason Muslim scholars date these manuscripts no earlier than 200 years after Muhammad died. (I don't pretend to understand all this. I got it from the link given previously.)

There is also the relatively recently discovered Yemeni hoard quran you can do a search for it and read about it. It is dated to the 7th or 8th century and was discovered buried in a mosque in Yemen.

 

[Red Devil]

Oh shit Randolfo! The human creation, religion, has as many flaws as its creator!
LIEK OMG!

Meaning what? Creator? Nobody "created" the universe.

 

[567]

Rando.

LOL. I can't help but laughing at Randos desprate attempts to attack Islam, if not islam then Mohammad, if not him then Muslims in general and funny that every time make an ass out of himself. LOL. Pitty Rando.

Hey Rando I want to convert,what do I have to do? would jesus save me?

 

[Red Devil]

I have no problem with anyone who wishes to practice any religion, athough an athiest myself. It when they try to alter my life by inserting theirs, thats when I get angry. Christmas is considered "un pc" in the city of birmingham england and all christian symbols have been removed, but its ok to see shops with "Eide Mubarak" and "Ramadan" on big posters and Father Xmas is banned but Diwali can be celebrated on the same streets. England is supposedly a christian country, want to bet? Damn, going too far off topic. Anyway, Islam is as good, or as bad, as all the others. Leave me alone, I leave you alone.

 

[zack0114]

Just who gave Mohammad the quran?











I guess Mohammad just couldn't remember; God, Gabriel, Holy Spirit, or the Rejected Devil

if there were any flaws in these sayings that were mentioned dont you think the peolpe in the west will make a big deal about it. there are no flaws in these verses becuase your not looking at the verse or the quran for that matter as a whole to understand the true meanings.

 

[marv]

There is also the relatively recently discovered Yemeni hoard quran you can do a search for it and read about it. It is dated to the 7th or 8th century and was discovered buried in a mosque in Yemen.

It was discovered by some German contractors in an attic space of a mosque in Sana'a, Yemen which the contractors were helping to restore. Originally, the Germans wanted to send it to an expert in ancient Arabic languages in Hamburg, Germany for translation and preservation. However, Yemen officials stepped in and I understand that it is "locked" up in Sana'a.

if there were any flaws in these sayings that were mentioned dont you think the peolpe in the west will make a big deal about it. there are no flaws in these verses becuase your not looking at the verse or the quran for that matter as a whole to understand the true meanings.

You might want to check the Skeptics site for commentary. They include the Bible as well as the Book of Mormon.

 

[sol13]

I was interested in this discovery of the Quran so I did a bit of googling. I realise internet sites can be prejudiced so I am not claiming authoritative status for any of this but if this copy of the Quran is genuine does not this dispute the entire foundation of Islam. As Islam is based upon the Quran being the word of god as transmitted to Muhammad then it should be word for word exact. God does not change his mind yet according to my rather immature research the Quran fouen at the mosque in Yemen is not the same as the Quran that has been handed down to modernity.
There is an Egyptian historian called Abu Zaid who said "The Quran is a literary text and the only way to understand , explain and analyse it is through the literary approach". He was branded as an apostate in 1990 even though he claimed he was a true muslim.
If this discovery in Yemen is genuine doesn't it put the entire Islamic faith into question as the Quran is no longer the word of god.
As I said earlier I only learnt of this Yemeny discovery from this site and have only done basic research through googling so feel free to flame me if I am wrong.

 

[path]

I was interested in this discovery of the Quran so I did a bit of googling. I realise internet sites can be prejudiced so I am not claiming authoritative status for any of this but if this copy of the Quran is genuine does not this dispute the entire foundation of Islam. As Islam is based upon the Quran being the word of god as transmitted to Muhammad then it should be word for word exact. God does not change his mind yet according to my rather immature research the Quran fouen at the mosque in Yemen is not the same as the Quran that has been handed down to modernity.
There is an Egyptian historian called Abu Zaid who said "The Quran is a literary text and the only way to understand , explain and analyse it is through the literary approach". He was branded as an apostate in 1990 even though he claimed he was a true muslim.
If this discovery in Yemen is genuine doesn't it put the entire Islamic faith into question as the Quran is no longer the word of god.
As I said earlier I only learnt of this Yemeny discovery from this site and have only done basic research through googling so feel free to flame me if I am wrong.

It does have a serious effect on the current islamic doctrine if immutability which most muslims base thier faith upon but the belief that the quran is immutable was a later development in islam not the original doctrine. Disposing of that doctrine could actually open the doors to true scholarly and historic study of the quran and islam (without the risk of death threats).

 

[marv]

I came across that web site on the Sana'a Qur'an manuscript a year or more ago. If memory serves me, the speculated date was somewhere between 800AD and 1000AD because of the script. Previous written copies of recitations had been ordered to be destroyed, but perhaps not all of them were. The Sana'a manuscript may have been one. But I suspect that it too has now been destroyed.

Recitation was the first method of preserving history in the ancient world. Creation myths and stories of the ancient gods were passed on from generation to generation that way. There were in fact professional "memorizers" who accomplished this. Even in more modern times, the lore and ledgends of the American indians was preserved in this manner. This was the practice in cultures that were generally illiterate.

But even under the best of circumstances, alterations creep in. How many times have you asked your spouse, child or someone to go off somewhere and do something only to remember too late, "Damn, I forgot to tell them to..."? The human memory is not perfect.

The Torah was compiled about 700BC based on this system of memorizing stories that date to pre-history, and the balance of the Old Testament was compiled about 200BC. The New Testament wasn't written until after Jesus.

It's really a question of how good is anybody's memory.

 

[sol13]

I have been doing some more googling though I have not been able to find anything more recent than the year 2000 when the findings of Puin, Bothmer & Crone seem to have decided the Yemeni authorities to deny further access to this copy of the Quran. It must have worried them that there could be various versions of the Quran. If so it does bring the Quran into question. There are various passages in the Quran which state that it is the word of god:
Perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and Justice. There is naught that can change His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
Sura 6:115

There is no changing the Words of Allah.
Sura 10:64

And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of Thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.
Sura 18:27

If there is an alternative version of the Quran then all of the above has no merit and when one part of the Quran loses merit then what of the remainder?

 

[Spence]

" For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light."

- 2 Corinthians 11:13-14