How did "Jim Crow whites" change?

S.A.M.

uniquely dreadful
Valued Senior Member
Billy T has often told us about his activism in the civil rights movement.

I'm sure there are other members here who remember the days when "negros" had separate wash stands and were not allowed to sit next to whites in schools, restaurants and in buses.

The practice was so prevalent and yet one could arguably say that whites in America have come a long way from their attitudes to blacks in the 1950s. Considering the short passage of time since, what would you pinpoint as the focal epiphanies of change in the attitude towards people of colour?

How did desegregation become a reality? How did attitudes to blacks change?
 
Billy T has often told us about his activism in the civil rights movement.

I'm sure there are other members here who remember the days when "negros" had separate wash stands and were not allowed to sit next to whites in schools, restaurants and in buses.

The practice was so prevalent and yet one could arguably say that whites in America have come a long way from their attitudes to blacks in the 1950s. Considering the short passage of time since, what would you pinpoint as the focal epiphanies of change in the attitude towards people of colour?

How did desegregation become a reality? How did attitudes to blacks change?

It probably was ingrained into the mindsets of the younger generation, who usually are more tolerant than their parents. It's even seen today with far more people in younger generations than their parents' or grandparents' generation being in support of gay marriage or at least openly tolerant of homosexual people. Plus it was the young people from the cultural revolution in the 60s that brought about such great change in more than one aspect of American culture. However many of the people who were adults in the 50s or before still have lingering poor attitudes about people of color.
 
It probably was ingrained into the mindsets of the younger generation, who usually are more tolerant than their parents. It's even seen today with far more people in younger generations than their parents' or grandparents' generation being in support of gay marriage or at least openly tolerant of homosexual people. Plus it was the young people from the cultural revolution in the 60s that brought about such great change in more than one aspect of American culture. However many of the people who were adults in the 50s or before still have lingering poor attitudes about people of color.

So what happened between one generation and the next to change these attitudes?

If we were to compare North and South what were the similarities between changes in the North in the 1850s to changes in the South in the 1950s?

And what were the causes of persistence for a 100 years more in the South?
 
So what happened between one generation and the next to change these attitudes?

If we were to compare North and South what were the similarities between changes in the North in the 1850s to changes in the South in the 1950s?

And what were the causes of persistence for a 100 years more in the South?

Honestly the only drastic change I think came from the young adults of the 1960s. They were against everything their parents stood for from family structure, to women wearing jeans to school, to love and peace for all...etc. During the mid 1800s I wouldn't really say that the people were suddenly alright with black people being around. They just sort of tolerated them. They were still had a heavily racist mindset. Even Abraham Lincoln didn't expect the ex-slaves to stay in the US as he was quite ignorantly prejudiced himself. The South was (and for some really sad reason some people still are) angry about the outcome of the war and being forced to change their ways.
 
Billy T has often told us about his activism in the civil rights movement.

I'm sure there are other members here who remember the days when "negros" had separate wash stands and were not allowed to sit next to whites in schools, restaurants and in buses.

The practice was so prevalent and yet one could arguably say that whites in America have come a long way from their attitudes to blacks in the 1950s. Considering the short passage of time since, what would you pinpoint as the focal epiphanies of change in the attitude towards people of colour?

How did desegregation become a reality? How did attitudes to blacks change?
Economics.

The need for a homogenous, peaceful workforce and the cultivation of a national image attractive to immigrants has been the driving force behind social change.
 
Honestly the only drastic change I think came from the young adults of the 1960s. They were against everything their parents stood for from family structure, to women wearing jeans to school, to love and peace for all...etc. During the mid 1800s I wouldn't really say that the people were suddenly alright with black people being around. They just sort of tolerated them. They were still had a heavily racist mindset. Even Abraham Lincoln didn't expect the ex-slaves to stay in the US as he was quite ignorantly prejudiced himself. The South was (and for some really sad reason some people still are) angry about the outcome of the war and being forced to change their ways.


What changed for young adults in the 1960s? How did that affect ideas of racism?
 
SAM said:
Considering the short passage of time since, what would you pinpoint as the focal epiphanies of change in the attitude towards people of colour?
Laws were passed, and others enforced, preventing the more bigoted whites from reinforcing their bigotry through coerced circumstance - some feedback loops were broken.

That was done by force in the service of reason - not always done well, of course, as force naturally serves more than one master (and eventually, only itself). Whether the reason or the force was more critical is a matter of interest.

Others remain, more difficult to banish by force or less easily extricated by reason from the individual worldview.
SAM said:
If we were to compare North and South what were the similarities between changes in the North in the 1850s to changes in the South in the 1950s?

And what were the causes of persistence for a 100 years more in the South?
The South had plantation slavery in the first place (an entire economic structure based on breeding, renting, leasing, and buying labor), and its entire economy depended on coerced work forces;

both cause and effect, the Confederacy had much more severe and deeply embedded racial distinctions, and had just lost a war over the matter - compare the people of the Middle East bullied nations giving up the misogynistic aspects of their religion under pressure from the bullies. Compare Ireland giving up the darker aspects of its Catholocism based culture, under domination by England.

The parallels between the institutionlized misogyny of Islamic regions and the Jim Crow arrangements in the US are striking and could be informative for those familiar with one or the other - including, for example, the greater comfort and personal ease of many southern US blacks in the company of southern whites.
 
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I'm sure there are other members here who remember the days when "negros" had separate wash stands and were not allowed to sit next to whites in schools, restaurants and in buses.
I'm one of the oldest people here and when I was young I lived in three different states: Illinois, Arizona and California. There were no separate restrooms in any of those places. In Chicago the schools were segregated but tacitly, not by law, because the neighborhoods themselves were segregated--again due to social pressure, not law. In Chicago there were places where Afro-Americans were not welcome except as servants, and there were places where Euro-Americans did not want to sit next to them, but there were also places like at least one hospital I went to, where everyone mixed.

There was almost none of this in Arizona or California. The schools were already integrated in the 1950s due to neighborhood divisions breaking down. There was certainly some personal animosity but it was rarely expressed in public as more than a sneer, not a refusal to allow someone to sit down. I entered Caltech with its first Afro-American undergraduate. The first Afro-American had applied a couple of years previously, and the administrators claimed that they rejected him because even though he met the minimum standards, they wanted to wait for someone they were positive would not flunk out so they wouldn't be accused of discrimination. There's no way to know if they were being honest about that convoluted logic, but the fellow who finally made it really was outstanding. But it was still many years before they started admitting women in the undergraduate program.;)

Inter-racial marriages were common enough in Los Angeles by 1960 that nobody stared at them.

The state university near where we live now in northwestern California went through this transition two generations earlier. They already had Afro-American students in the 1920s. The football coach wanted to put the first Afro-American on the team, and the student body overwhelmingly supported him, but the administrators worried that they would anger the parents whom they depended on for money. It would also have resulted in many other schools refusing to play against them. The kid volunteered to stay off the team to avoid the problem. The next thing the school knew, they were inundated with mail from parents, demanding that they let the Afro-American kid play, regardless of the consequences.

Welcome to California. Yeah, we had the Watts riots and the Rodney King incident, but we also had stuff like that.
So what happened between one generation and the next to change these attitudes?
These weren't the only changes. There was a wholesale rift that was named "the Generation Gap."

Consider that there had been a major shift to the left among America's intellectuals, clear back in the 1920s. This means that the new young teachers in the 1950s had been educated by liberal professors. Consider that the Baby Boom started in 1946 and the country began a massive school-building program in the 1950s to accommodate them, and all those new young teachers were hired to staff them. I'm three years too old to be a Boomer but I was still carried along by this tidal wave, and I remember how much more liberal my teachers were than my parents.

One of the specific things these idealistic people hammered away at was racism. If they heard a kid make a racial slur they corrected him. Our lessons seemed to highlight Afro-American figures like George Washington Carver and Marian Anderson and they were accompanied by a few personal anecdotes in the same vein.

When I got to Arizona and there were Afro-American kids sitting in the same classrooms, we were taught by daily example that they were no different from the rest of us.

Of course we knew about racism and some of us ran into it at home, but we had a powerful counterpoint.

Now remember "the Generation Gap." We (there weren't enough of us War Babies to form a community so we had to choose to hang out with the Baby Boomers or the Depression Babies: I picked the Boomers because they had better music) were the first post-war generation. We saw our elders as the people responsible for everything wrong with America, from the lame music, to the Victorian attitude about sex, to the use of nuclear weapons against civilian targets. It was natural to include racism in that list.

So we went out and campaigned for rock and roll, the Sexual Revolution, the end of war, and civil rights. (Also drugs, motorcycles, atheism and a lot of other fun stuff.)
If we were to compare North and South what were the similarities between changes in the North in the 1850s to changes in the South in the 1950s? And what were the causes of persistence for a 100 years more in the South?
I'm not enough of a historian to answer your first question. But your second question hinges upon the nature of Southern culture.

Because of its climate and other factors, the South was a natural agricultural area. While the Industrial Revolution gained momentum in the North, it was delayed in the South, whose plantation owners didn't have much use for industry and never even got around to building much of a railroad network. This reinforced the South's vision of itself as a storybook recreation of the old aristocratic feudal societies of Europe. Of course no one was willing to fill the roles of the yeomen farmers in the 19th century, so they used slaves instead. Slavery was vanishing by attrition in the North, where it was discovered empirically that an industrial economy requires its workers to be motivated by having a stake in their enterprise.

Of course it had already been empirically discovered that the same principle holds for agriculture as it was increasingly mechanized. The South was living in a delusion; its slave-based agriculture could not possibly have remained competitive for more than another decade or two, and in fact slavery vanished peacefully by economic attrition everywhere else in the Western Hemisphere within 25 years, except Haiti.

But America is a nation of extremes and we went to war to end slavery sooner. (I'm vastly oversimplifying. That wasn't Lincoln's original reason but he threw it in later to coax the Northerners into continuing the fight.)

The South lost the war, their storybook fantasy came crashing down, and like all defeated peoples they were both humiliated and impoverished. And whose fault was it?

The black people--and of course that's not what they called them.

I've spoken before of the Collective Unconscious and how attitudes are passed down from one generation to the next, often unconsciously, becoming motifs in their culture. In 1940, people in the South, whose great-grandparents had fought in the Civil War and lost, still hated "colored people," the polite term in those days.
What changed for young adults in the 1960s? How did that affect ideas of racism?
It was the Generation Gap and it started in the 1950s when we were children; by the 1960s the change was complete. It's just that that was when we were old enough to have some power to manifest that change externally. And it did not just affect the issue of racism. Peace, religion, the environment, sex, intellectualism, women's rights.. the whole cultural landscape of America was repainted on the other side of the Generation Gap.
 
Moderator note: Thread split. See [thread=99445]here[/thread] for the WillNever vs. Norsefire pissing contest.
 
Ok, this is just my observation as far as segragation. It's very basic, and not backed by pretty much anything other than my own opinion.

We desegregated in the 50's. Things were happy go lucky until the late 80's early 90's. Now it seems that segragation is taking place on it's own but not because of whites, but rather because many minorities wanting their own cities/neighborhoods. Again, just my 2cents. I guess it would be more like voluntary separation instead of involuntary segragation.

I'm sure Fraggle knows a hell of a lot more about this than me.
 
MZ said:
We desegregated in the 50's. Things were happy go lucky until the late 80's early 90's.
Things were happy go lucky in the 60s, 70s, and early 80s?

What about "race riot" sounds happy go lucky to you?
 
...
Considering the short passage of time since, what would you pinpoint as the focal epiphanies of change in the attitude towards people of colour?

It was education that treating all people as equals would better the quality of life for everyone.

How did desegregation become a reality?

Social and economic pressure. Those that couldn't adapt to it were marginalized.

How did attitudes to blacks change?

They split off into numerous subcultures. Some were successful and others to this day keep many black people in a self-segragated, "blame whitey", anti-education environment.
 
crunchy said:
Social and economic pressure. Those that couldn't adapt to it were marginalized
And laws, backed by government officials and men with guns.

And street riots, forcing changes in how things were set up.

The white people who couldn't adapt to it were not marginalized. They did very well for themselves, in many cases - played central roles in the politics and economics of the nation.
 
And laws, backed by government officials and men with guns.

And street riots, forcing changes in how things were set up.

Economic and social pressure.

The white people who couldn't adapt to it were not marginalized. They did very well for themselves, in many cases - played central roles in the politics and economics of the nation.

Oh? Any KKK in congress lately?
 
crunchy said:
The white people who couldn't adapt to it were not marginalized. They did very well for themselves, in many cases - played central roles in the politics and economics of the nation.

Oh? Any KKK in congress lately?
Robert Byrd, President Pro Tempore of the Senate, is the only official member of the Klan AFAIK.

He's not the only Confederate racist in Congress over the past forty years, of course.
 
Robert Byrd, President Pro Tempore of the Senate, is the only official member of the Klan AFAIK.

He's not the only Confederate racist in Congress over the past forty years, of course.

Robert Byrd isn't a KKK member. He quit a very long time ago.

"I know now I was wrong. Intolerance had no place in America. -Robert Byrd"

Looks like he adapted.
 
Things were happy go lucky in the 60s, 70s, and early 80s? What about "race riot" sounds happy go lucky to you?
He's speaking comparatively. Every trend has dips and peaks, but averaged over the years race relations were much more peaceful in the USA after about 1965 than they were from the end of Reconstruction to WWII. When's the last time you heard about a lynching? The last public KKK meeting? Do I really have to mention President Obama?

Euro- and Afro-American children started going to school together. That single, major act of integration made a quantum improvement in race relations. When kids learn from age six, on a daily basis, from personal observation, that they're all pretty much the same, they will change their culture. And they did. Of course there is still animosity, but it is NOTHING like it was between 70 and 130 years ago.
Now it seems that segragation is taking place on it's own but not because of whites, but rather because many minorities wanting their own cities/neighborhoods.
(At least) some sociologists use the rate of outmarriage as a measure of integration. This is the engine that heats up the Melting Pot and keeps it boiling. If you have people of another ethnicity in your very own family, it changes your perspective on ethnicity. It changes even further when those people have children, who no longer have an "ethnicity" at all (except on holidays;)) but are just unhyphenated Americans.

My classroom data is a little old but news articles and chats with people in the field tell me it hasn't changed much: The American ethnic group considered the most culturally conservative, both by its own members and outsiders, is Asian-Americans. (Sorry, I of all people know they are not a single group but the figures aren't broken down.) Their outmarriage rate is about 25% in the first generation and rises to 70% in the third. I regard the fourth generation as the barometer of assimilation, and it's really hard to find an American whom I (or he himself) would describe as a fourth-generation Chinese- or Korean-American. (For a reality test, how many people do you know who call themselves even second-generation Italian- or Irish-Americans?)

For Latinos, the ethnic group that conservative Americans love to hate because "they're taking over our country," the first-generation intermarriage rate is more than 30% and in the second it's up in the 70s. It's hard to find a third-generation Latino. Los Angeles's leading Mexican music radio station had to switch to anglophone DJs because it's now fashionable for the children of immigrants to not know a word of Spanish. (Music endures, language doesn't. I'm glad I'm a musician and not just a linguist;))

So what are the rates among Afro-Americans? Well first we have a problem defining "first generation." For a moment we'll leave the new wave of African and Caribbean immigrants out of this and just talk about the descendants of freed slaves. Their families have been here and free for at least seven generations.

Sure, but with segregation and all, maybe not too many of them were in a position to outmarry. Okay, the laws against "mixed-race" marriage were nullified thirty years ago. (The surname of the couple whose appeal overturned the last one was "Loving," so for all eternity the history books will remember this case by its official, poetic name "Loving vs. Virginia.":)) Anyway, that means we've got two generations of Afro-Americans who are free to marry whomever they want. And you foreigners will have to take my word for it, there is no shortage of Euro-Americans willing to marry them, even if a shameful number of us are still Unreconstructed.

And after this, the outmarriage rate of Afro-Americans with the mainstream population is about three percent! When I was a kid most "mixed marriages" were a "white" guy and a "black" gal, but today it's reversed. Many Afro-American women look down on outmarriage. On an episode of "Oprah," they called Afro-American men who date outside their community "traitors."

A couple of years ago the Washington Post ran a series of articles on the problem of single-parent households in the Afro-American community. One woman described the reason in a sentence I will never forget: "There just aren't enough nice black men."

Sure, I understand that the unfairly enforced drug laws and a host of other cultural problems result in a lot of Afro-American men having prison records, poor education, yatta yatta. I guess they're the kind of men a woman doesn't mind having as the father of her child, but doesn't want him to stick around and help raise him.

But what I'm getting to is this: can you visualize this piece of journalism with the colors reversed?

hypothetical news report said:
Meredith Schwarz, a white woman in predominantly white Bethesda, Maryland, is a single mother in a community dominated by single mothers. When I asked her why she and so many of her sisters aren't married, she replied, 'It's because there just aren't enough nice white men'."
Imagine the uproar! Thousands, probably millions of people across America would lambaste her for not even considering the possibility of marrying an Afro-American, a Latino, an Asian-American, a Native American, or any of our other ethnic minorities!

You know how many letters there were in the Washington Post, complaining about that Afro-American lady's point of view? Just take a guess. I think you know the answer.

Zero. I know I didn't write mine. I only say stuff like that where I can hide safely behind a pseudonym.

Frankly I have no idea what that says about race relations in 21st century America. I'll just sum it up fer ya: They may have come a long way, but they're still fucked.

To get back to that new wave of dark-skinned immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean, I have opined before (and my Afro-American friends say I could be right) that they might turn out to be the key to solving this problem. They have none of the cultural baggage that came with slavery. The Underground Railroad, Uncle Tom's Cabin, the Emancipation Proclamation, the Civil War, Jim Crow, Langston Hughes, Marian Anderson, the Tuskegee Airmen, Little Rock, Selma, MLK, Watts, Rodney King: these are not parts of their history and they are not rattling around in their Collective Unconscious. They endured poverty that makes a 19th century sharecropper look like a rich man, and they endured persecution that makes having a separate-but-equal water fountain look like palatial living--all at the hands of other Africans!

Of course they're not naive and they see the friction between the lighter- and darker-skinned people in America. But compared to the freedom and economic opportunities they have here, and especially the future their children look forward to (wasn't that Obama dude's father from Kenya?), they think a person would have to be an idiot to complain about this country's flaws.

I think the new African-Americans (and in a little linguistic brawl that I find amusing, both the established families of African ancestry and the new immigrants each think the OTHER group has no right to that label!) will be a bridge between the old Afro-Americans and the rest of us.

Geezy weezy, at least I sure hope so!
 
fraggle said:
He's speaking comparatively. Every trend has dips and peaks,
His comparison was between the period just after the 50s and the early 80s. He said the race relations in the US were "happy go lucky" from 1960 until 1980, compared with the race relations of the early 80s.
fraggle said:
talk about the descendants of freed slaves. Their families have been here and free for at least seven generations.
They were not "free", in any but the most technical and academic sense, until maybe forty years ago at the earliest.
fraggle said:
Anyway, that means we've got two generations of Afro-Americans who are free to marry whomever they want. And you foreigners will have to take my word for it, there is no shortage of Euro-Americans willing to marry them, even if a shameful number of us are still Unreconstructed.
This is fantasy - are people supposed to marry people who are "willing" to marry them?

I am not at all mystified, given the economic and social relations between the races in everyday US life, and the gender roles for women thereby established in the black communities, that the kinds of social dealings that lead to outmarriage are still rare exceptions.
 
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