How can God not exist?

[Jan Ardena]

They do say different things. No one can agree if it's one (monotheism), multifaceted (animism, shinto), many (paganism) just a word for everything (deism, hinduism), or a word used to describe an altered state of consciousness (Buddhism sometimes).

You seem to be talking about religion.
I specifically spoke of ''scripture'', because is supposedly the creation of primitive, pre-modern scientific men.

The scripture all concur.
This is most bizzare as one would expect vast differences according to various
times, places, and circumstances.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Excuse me?
My comments aren't inane

Correction. This one is:

My point is, our imagination cannot concieve of something that doesn't exist

You have yet to show that this is true.
Again.

 

[spidergoat]

You seem to be talking about religion.
I specifically spoke of ''scripture'', because is supposedly the creation of primitive, pre-modern scientific men.

The scripture all concur.
This is most bizzare as one would expect vast differences according to various
times, places, and circumstances.

jan.

What's the difference Jan?

 

[Jan Ardena]

What's the difference Jan?

Religions where God is central (the concept of primitive man), is based on scripture (the writings of the concept of primitive man). Therefore scripture is
the source of the concept of primitive man.

How did such a man imagine God as described (by myself earlier) in these
scriptures, which do concur?


jan.

 

[YoYoPapaya]

what scriptures?

could you post a link?

What guarantee is there that ALL of them concur?

 

[Jan Ardena]

what scriptures?

could you post a link?

What guarantee is there that ALL of them concur?

You're gonna have to do that work for yourself

For starters, look at the Bible and the Quran.

jan.

 

[spidergoat]

No one does actually have a conception of God. It's just a collection of attributes we think such a thing would have, superlative in every way, there is no definition one could pin down, which is exactly why it's impossible to debate. Everyone has a conception of a being, even a powerful one, it's like a great warrior or king.

So why do all the ancient scriptures concur, regarding God?
If what you say it true, then different scriptures would say different things.

jan.

They do say different things. No one can agree if it's one (monotheism), multifaceted (animism, shinto), many (paganism) just a word for everything (deism, hinduism), or a word used to describe an altered state of consciousness (Buddhism sometimes).

You seem to be talking about religion.
I specifically spoke of ''scripture'', because is supposedly the creation of primitive, pre-modern scientific men.

The scripture all concur.
This is most bizzare as one would expect vast differences according to various
times, places, and circumstances.

jan.

What's the difference Jan?

Religions where God is central (the concept of primitive man), is based on scripture (the writings of the concept of primitive man). Therefore scripture is
the source of the concept of primitive man.

How did such a man imagine God as described (by myself earlier) in these
scriptures, which do concur?


jan.

Are you saying that the scriptures of all these religions are the same even when the religions are not?

(I have highlighted the religions/philosophies in magenta for clarity)

 

[Jan Ardena]

Are you saying that the scriptures of all these religions are the same even when the religions are not?

(I have highlighted the religions/philosophies in magenta for clarity)

What do you mean ''scriptures for all these religions''?

What are ''pagan'', or ''shinto'' scriptures?

jan.

 

[spidergoat]

Who cares whether we talk about the scriptures or the religions? Scriptures are the written form of a religious belief. Neither the religions nor the scriptures that define them are similar at all in their conceptions of god!

 

[Jan Ardena]

1. Who cares whether we talk about the scriptures or the religions?


2. Scriptures are the written form of a religious belief.


3. Neither the religions nor the scriptures that define them are similar at all in their conceptions of god!

1. I care, because it is relative to the thread.


2. So how did primative man imagine the things I mentioned?
And what does that stuff have to do with comforting the fear of death?


3. When it comes to concept of ''God'' (the concept of the primitive man), they all concur.


jan.


jan.

 

[YoYoPapaya]

You're gonna have to do that work for yourself

For starters, look at the Bible and the Quran.

jan.

I'm not the one making the claims about ALL "scripture" concurring. You're gonna have to do better than that.

 

[spidergoat]

1. I care, because it is relative to the thread.

How is the difference between a religion and it's written documents relevant to this thread?

2. So how did primative man imagine the things I mentioned?
And what does that stuff have to do with comforting the fear of death?

These people lived around nature and animals all the time. It's only natural to suspect the cause of something to be a living thing. God is not that far out a concept, indeed it's common, obvious, and simplistic. People often prefer a wrong idea or a conspiracy theory to no explanation at all.

3. When it comes to concept of ''God'' (the concept of the primitive man), they all concur.

No they do not, as I have already illustrated. What is this "concept of the primitive man" you keep talking about? If god were a universal idea, then all primitive tribes would have it, but they do not.

 

[wynn]

Who cares whether we talk about the scriptures or the religions? Scriptures are the written form of a religious belief.

How is the difference between a religion and it's written documents relevant to this thread?

If you don't distinguish between the two at least on principle, the object of your contention becomes so vague as to become intangible - and impossible to address.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Jan, still waiting for you to substantiate this:

My point is, our imagination cannot concieve of something that doesn't exist

Especially in the light of it being, as you stated,

crucial to the question posed in the opening thread.

 

[wesmorris]

The abstract notion (the concept), "god" obviously exists because there is a word for it.

Generally however, when one states something exists, the object of the concept is implied to be something that can be demonstrated to withstand whatever skepticism is warranted based on the gravity of the claim.

 

[wynn]

Generally however, when one states something exists, the object of the concept is implied to be something that can be demonstrated to withstand whatever skepticism is warranted based on the gravity of the claim.

Excellent point, and well stated!


The gravity of the claim "God exists" is extreme.

My contention against the theists is that they tend to take the claim "God exists" rather lightly, as something to argue about, and more as a means to blackmail others into submission.

Instead, giving them the credit that they might be right, I expect them to be able to answer all my questions in such a manner that I would gladly take up the godly path. But they don't.

I swear, if God exists, and I will find out some day - I will make every effort to not be the kind of theist I have mostly encountered so far.
The message of God should be glad tidings, and not an infinite exercise in spiritual abuse.

 

[YoYoPapaya]

fwiw I think you're an ok guy. Even if we do have our differences

 

[Jan Ardena]

Are you saying that the scriptures of all these religions are the same even when the religions are not?

(I have highlighted the religions/philosophies in magenta for clarity)

I'm not sure what you mean by ''.... the scriptures of all these religions are the same ''.

jan.

 

[YoYoPapaya]

That's what u said Jan. All the scriptures concur. Did u forget?

 

[Jan Ardena]

wesmorris,

Generally however, when one states something exists, the object of the concept is implied to be something that can be demonstrated to withstand whatever skepticism is warranted based on the gravity of the claim.

People generally don't state the existence of what actually is, ie, my love for my family exists. They usually take it for granted.

The scriptures do not make the claim ''God exists''.
The actual, original claim, must be ''God does not exist''?

Anyway, how could pre-science, primitive, uncivilised, uncultured people know about ''earth'', ''upper-planetary systems'', the universe, other planets, and their movements (orbits)?

It seems to me that to imagine all of this in a bid to explain things like thunder, or to appease their fear of death, or to control the masses, is an unreasonable assumption. Especially as modern man cannot create or imagine anything outside of that.

This is why I ask the question; How can God NOT exist?
Because all the other subjects I mentioned, are a byproduct of the concept of God, as written in ancient scriptures.

jan.