Holocaust ... and other forms of Denial

[Michael]

That isn't relevant data.

Sure it is.

Nobody knows.

Your claim is that White Racism is 'affecting' the IQ of Black People. If you don't know what the average IQ is supposed to be, then you don't even know if White Racism isn't raising it above what it would otherwise be, having no significant effect at all, or lowering it.

irrelevant.

Sure it is.

Again. I've mentioned the effects of white racism on the IQ scores of black people maybe, what, ten or fifteen times now?You have yet to address the matter.

You have yet to provide any good evidence for your claim. Even AGW scientists have models - the ones in Japan make pretty good predictions, of weather in and around Japan. Pretty crap outside of Japan though. Good evidence regarding smoking was demonstrated in lab animals.

As for IQ, most of the good evidence suggests it's genetic. Biochemistry. Chemicals crashing into one another, ultimately developing into a brain - some brains perform better on IQ tests than other brains. Pretending otherwise isn't going to change this fact. Making up some magical substance called 'Effects of White Racism' also isn't going to fix the problem. The only way to fix the problem is to genetically modify humans so that their brains all develop similarly. Or, accept that people who were under different selection pressures ended up with different functioning brains (on average). This shows up in IQ scores. Accept this reality, and then work to create a society that allows for all people to succeed - instead of just high IQ people, as is the case now, thanks to Progressive Socialism.

Talk about kicking a person when they are down. How sad is it that high IQ people not only have all the advantages of high IQ, but they then go even further and rig the system through regulatory-capture to ensure their privileged position in society, as legally protected rent-seekers.

A neat little trick, for people who have no conscious. All they had to do, was promise low IQ a bunch of free-shit.

Pathetic.

 

[Schmelzer]

That isn't relevant data.
Black people, in the US, effects of white racism - remember?

Seems, you don't understand how hypotheses have to be tested in science?

There is an observation: There is some white racism, and there is some IQ difference. You propose an explanation: The white racism is the cause of the IQ difference. But there is another explanation: The cause of the IQ difference is genetic. Given that there are, indeed, some genetic differences between blacks and whites, this explanation could also work to explain this observation.

What to do now? Once above explanations are supposed to be scientific, causal explanations, to be distinguished from astrological influences, where has to be some causal scientific theory behind it. So, let's try: Theory 1: Racism of one race against another race leads, causally, to a decrease of the IQ of the other race. Theory 2: IQ is genetic.

Once we have now some more general theory, we can apply it to other phenomena we can observe. Is there white racism against Asians in the US? Yes. Is there an IQ difference between Asians and Whites in the US? Yes. Is there a genetic difference between Asians and Whites? Yes. So, we can use now above hypotheses to make a prediction about Asian IQs. Theory 1 predicts: Asian IQ should be lower than White IQ. This seems in contradiction with observation. Theory 1 is empirically falsified. Now it has to be rejected, or at least modified, so that the modified theory remains compatible with the observation of higher Asian IQs in the US.

 

[iceaura]

That isn't relevant data.
Sure it is.

No, it isn't. Black people, US, remember?

Your claim is that White Racism is 'affecting' the IQ of Black People.

No, my claim is that you deny white racism and its effects on black people in the US.

You have yet to provide any good evidence for your claim.

Your denial is my claim. You keep repeating it.

As for IQ, most of the good evidence suggests it's genetic. Biochemistry.

So is height. You have no idea what that means. Then you try to use that meaningless assertion as justification for your absurd denial, which makes no sense.

So the question is why - what motivates these convoluted incoherencies in attempted support of absurd denials? And here we have some clues, building up over the pages and becoming essentially proof:

A neat little trick, for people who have no conscious. All they had to do, was promise low IQ a bunch of free-shit.

The guy wants to deny white racism and its effects on black people, because it undermines his political agenda and throws his political analysis into doubt. His allies are the perps, and his enemies the good guys, and his entire political worldview a horrible mistake, if he acknowledges historical and physical reality here. There's a lot on the line.

And likewise, frequently, apparently, with the other common absurdist denials: Darwinian Evolutionary Theory, AGW, the Holocaust, these denials don't mushroom up inexplicably out of some common haywiring of reason and evidence: they are powerfully motivated. This is top-down stuff, not bottom-up case building.

 

[iceaura]

Seems, you don't understand how hypotheses have to be tested in science?

There's no hypothesis involved, on my part. No testing indicated.

There is an observation: There is some white racism, and there is some IQ difference. You propose an explanation: The white racism is the cause of the IQ difference. But there is another explanation: The cause of the IQ difference is genetic. Given that there are, indeed, some genetic differences between blacks and whites, this explanation could also work to explain this observation.

What to do now? Once above explanations are supposed to be scientific, causal explanations, to be distinguished from astrological influences, where has to be some causal scientific theory behind it. So, let's try: Theory 1: Racism of one race against another race leads, causally, to a decrease of the IQ of the other race. Theory 2: IQ is genetic.

WTF? Joke? Chain pulling? Troll? Concussion?

Apparently I am supposed to believe that you guys are completely clueless here, that you aren't even aware of simple, basic, commonplace facts pertaining to your own theses and postings; just to pick an obvious one, that you don't even know that "genetic" and "racism" effects are not presumed to be mutually exclusive, but can (and are expected to) interact. That, for example, the extra stress of ghetto dwelling during pregnancy, or dust mite allergy, or poor diet, or dark winter weather, or lead exposure, or mold exposure, etc etc etc etc, might have even greater effects on the developing embryos of black women than white for some genetic reason . I'm supposed to accept the apparent claim that such "complications" are beyond your analytical capabilities.

Really?

Look: White racism and its effects on black people in the US is not a theoretical matter. It's not a hypothesis. It is in the historical record, it surrounds almost every citizen of the US, it has and has had massive, overwhelming, structural effects on US society and every aspect of black people's lives in the US. It is an observed reality.

Its denial is absurd.

 

[Schmelzer]

There's no hypothesis involved, on my part. No testing indicated.

That means, your claim:

One in particular, isolated? Ok: Its overall suppression, lowering, of US black people's performance on IQ tests and proxie IQ measures (SATs, etc).

was simply trolling and misleading the public? Ok, in this case I accept that you have taken back this statement, and there is nothing to discuss, because there is no point to discuss the triviality that white racism has had some unspecified effect.

... just to pick an obvious one, that you don't even know that "genetic" and "racism" effects are not presumed to be mutually exclusive, but can (and are expected to) interact. That, for example, the extra stress of ghetto dwelling during pregnancy, or dust mite allergy, or poor diet, or dark winter weather, or lead exposure, or mold exposure, etc etc etc etc, might have even greater effects on the developing embryos of black women than white for some genetic reason . I'm supposed to accept the apparent claim that such "complications" are beyond your analytical capabilities.
Really?

For me this is not a problem at all. But you showed obvious nonsense, by claiming that considering Asian IQs would be somehow irrelevant. And so it seemed necessary to explain, based on a very rough simplification, some basic ideas about the scientific method.

Btw, even your proposed interaction would not change anything in the suggested theory 1: Racism of one race against another race leads, causally, to a decrease of the IQ of the other race. At least your example was not one where racism has, via the hypothetical interaction, lead to an increase of the IQ of the suppressed race.

Then, your example suggests that you also need a basic lecture about empirical content, simplicity of theories, Ockham's razor, and their connection. Do you really need such a lecture? If not, then the complication suggested by your example is an unnecessary complication. If, given some specific results, it appears necessary to introduce them, ok, when we can do it. But up to now you have only reached the step 1: from the completely unscientific because untestable "white racism has some effect" to "white racism leads to overall suppression, lowering, of US black people's performance on IQ tests and proxie IQ measures (SATs, etc)."

You have not yet made the next step, of proposing some more general causal theory, which would make some more testable predictions.

Look: White racism and its effects on black people in the US is not a theoretical matter. It's not a hypothesis. It is in the historical record, it surrounds almost every citizen of the US, it has and has had massive, overwhelming, structural effects on US society and every aspect of black people's lives in the US. It is an observed reality.

That white racism has some (whatever) effects is, of course, a reality. For example, it has essentially increased, in a significant way, the number of appearances of the phrase "white racism" in iceauras postings. I would not deny this effect. But, whenever you start to become more specific than your general "effect", you propose theories, hypotheses.

Ok, you can handle such claims also as religious belief statements, or as joepistole facts, so that anybody who doubts them is to be condemned as a denier. Else, you have accept that studying these claims is part of science, and, therefore, one has to apply usual scientific methodology. And this methodology starts with recognizing that what you have proposed in #318 is a hypothesis.

 

[iceaura]

There's no hypothesis involved, on my part. No testing indicated.
That means, your claim:
iceaura in #318 said:

One in particular, isolated? Ok: Its overall suppression, lowering, of US black people's performance on IQ tests and proxie IQ measures (SATs, etc).​

was simply trolling and misleading the public?

No. What "claim" are you talking about? Were you somehow missing the point of my reply to Michael - that he had a huge hole in his argument?
Or is your misrepresentation there a deliberate one.
Take a look at one small example of what you require me to assume you have sincerely overlooked:

Michael claims the US black/white racial gap in average population IQ score is entirely or almost entirely "genetic" in some unspecified way, as shown by its familial heritability.
He claims that this disposes of white racism and its effects as an explanation for any significant black/white racial features of the US political and economic and sociological landscape - he labels these "outcomes".

I post the fact that the anti-miscegenation laws of the Jim Crow era were enforced throughout the Confederacy until 1967. 1967 was 50 years ago - less than two reproductive generations. Until 1967, throughout the Confederacy (home to many black people in the US), any "genetic" racial gap in IQ scores was being maintained at gunpoint, via the enforcement of explicitly racist law by overtly racist authority.

You then repost a demand for scientific evidence of my "hypothesis" of white racism, and explicitly set it up as in conflict with an alternative "inherited IQ" explanation of "outcomes".

And I am supposed to take you guys seriously?

For me this is not a problem at all. But you showed obvious nonsense, by claiming that considering Asian IQs would be somehow irrelevant.

They are completely irrelevant to any post of mine in this thread. All my posts are about common absurd denials, and Asian IQs are not involved in any of them afaik (unless the amnesia regarding Mao Terror counts).

You have not yet made the next step, of proposing some more general causal theory, which would make some more testable predictions.

Not only that, I have labeled as absurd denial the demand for any such bullshit "general causal theory".

You're among the deniers. Which brings us to one of my actual points of interest: absurd denials cluster in deniers. And you illustrate this - in your world, AGW and the Holocaust for sure, hints of 9/11 even, join white racism in America as matters in which basic physical and historical facts are in doubt, are "hypotheses", require "scientific evidence". Dismissing your proposed "explanation" (you assume a defensible and reasoned skepticism about anything is always possible, which is assuming the consequent), and setting aside the question of sincerity (since even insincere propaganda mongers are appealing to sincere belief in others), we have a variety of possibilities to consider: my nomination above is political self-defense, a deep investment in an unrealistic worldview of a particular (and currently politically significant) kind.

 

[Michael]

No, my claim is that you deny white racism and its effects on black people in the US.

LOL

Firstly, what are US Black People's IQ scores supposed to be?

Nobody knows.

If you don't know what the average IQ is supposed to be, then you don't even know if White Racism isn't raising it above what it would otherwise be, having no significant effect at all, or lowering it.

Your denial is my claim. You keep repeating it.

LOL

Babysteps iceaura. One more time, do you know if the 'effects of white racism' raises, lowers or has no effect on the IQ of Black People? You're claiming 'no one knows' if there's an effect, and at the same time claiming I'm 'denying the effect of white racism on the IQ of Black People in the USA'

Again, your weak Sophism is a fantastic example of why Aristotle invented Logic. Almost to a "T". Of course, that was a deduction, but still.


As an aside, this is the wonderfully interesting thing about Religion. In your case: Statism. The irrationality.

Big Gawd, whittle State.
Little Gawd, BIG mother-fracking STATE.

I've seen the exact kind of 'reasoning' you're applying here, it's quite common - for people who are religious. Superstitious beliefs, those are interesting. It's why I fully expect so-called "Progressive" Statists / Socialists / Authoritarians to (in time) ban the Scientific Method itself.
Of course, they will. In the West, as our societies decline. Which they are doing as we speak.
Progressives are already attempting to ban Science. A recent purely objective gene-based IQ test was canceled, due to pressure on the scientist. After discussions with his employer, a University, he decided some research should not be done (and keep your job as a researcher ) See, it was leading to the 'Wrong' answers.


Right now Progressive Socialists are hard at work implementing Goodthink. It's why your argument is a mess. You're attempting to maintain your religious ideology faithfully, and Goodthink, yet all the Good Evidence, suggests that you're wrong, and that's no Good(think), that's Badthink, and soon to be Crimethink.

LOL

The Framers were right to list freedom to speak, freedom to insult common sensibility - the freedom to think, as the first Amendment. But, once Progressives had the legal right to tax labor, the experiment was finished. Over.

Oh well, America is dead.
Long live the U.S.A.


Let's see who Dear Leader is going to be. I'm sort of hoping for Ivanka. She's cute
FOTGLMAO

 

[Michael]

The guy wants to deny white racism and its effects on black people, because it undermines his political agenda and throws his political analysis into doubt. His allies are the perps, and his enemies the good guys, and his entire political worldview a horrible mistake, if he acknowledges historical and physical reality here. There's a lot on the line.

What's on the line?

The future looks pretty bright as far as I can tell. Ultra safe cities of relatively high IQ people with, possibly, the highest level of individual liberty achieved since the first Civilizations were founded. Technological advancements that will make life unimaginably better. Everything from Education to Entertainment will be improved. In the East. As for the West, the West hates and rejects the very culture that raised Humanity to the heights we now enjoy. Individual liberty, sound money, and common law. These are despised by the West in favor of the Social Good, fiat currency and T-Bonded generational debts, and regulatory-capture. You know, our Progressive Socialistic Paradise.

 

[iceaura]

Babysteps iceaura. One more time, do you know if the 'effects of white racism' raises, lowers or has no effect on the IQ of Black People?

Which ones? The ones you propose - on direct "inherent" DNA allele distributions, say, via miscegenation laws and the like - would all be negative according to you.

You're claiming 'no one knows' if there's an effect, and at the same time claiming I'm 'denying the effect of white racism on the IQ of Black People in the USA'

Neither of those is accurate, and the combination is a confusion. Try quoting, in context.

A recent purely objective gene-based IQ test was canceled, due to pressure on the scientist.

Bullshit. You never get that kind of stuff straight. For starters, there is no such thing as a "gene-based IQ test".

If you would just confine your claims to the existence of political pressure and bias on research into racial issues, you might have better luck. But you - like other deniers - can't afford to acknowledge common reality in that way.

 

[Michael]

for example, the extra stress of ghetto dwelling during pregnancy, or dust mite allergy, or poor diet, or dark winter weather, or lead exposure, or mold exposure, etc etc etc etc, might have even greater effects on the developing embryos of black women than white for some genetic reason .

You'll have to clarify the claim this sentence is attempting to make. What 'effects' on the developing embryos are you referring to?

 

[Michael]

Bullshit.

Selzam, S et al (2016) Predicting Educational Achievement from DNA Molecular Psychiatry http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/MP.2016.107

 

[iceaura]

The future looks pretty bright as far as I can tell. Ultra safe cities of relatively high IQ people with, possibly, the highest level of individual liberty achieved since the first Civilizations were founded. Technological advancements that will make life unimaginably better. Everything from Education to Entertainment will be improved. In East.

And so we see the authoritarian colors run up the pole. All those years of championing free market capitalism and "real money" and non-intrusive government, thrown away on the first big State government you can find that shows some financial success without liberal politics.

btw: Unless something significant changes and soon, AGW is going to kill the Chinese renaissance. Their military conquest of the headwaters of their major rivers is only going to soften the blow, and give them some leverage over India - not fend it off.

 

[Michael]

Nature: Functional connectome fingerprinting: identifying individuals using patterns of brain connectivity.

Like it or not, different humans were selected for different traits as they migrated and attempted to live in various extreme environments. In the case of E. Asians, the evidence suggests they now enjoy a better mental ability to reason spatially (average) and this may have been selected due to arctic tundra their ancestors lived in for tens of thousands of years.

The evidence suggests that IQ is mostly biological.

In a Progressive Socialistic Paradise where State Violence determines who can do what through regulatory-capture and limited licensing scams (See: Lawyer, Medical Doctor, Vet, Florist, etc... ) the slight advantages in mental ability allow advancement in poorly structured Government Schools where assessment is all that really matters. Sure, in a free-market, high IQ people would do well (as evidenced in the >50% Asians who work in IT in CA), however, lower IQ people would be allowed to open their own businesses, this would create more jobs, demand for labor-hours would increase, and with it the price per hour.

But, thanks to Progressive Socialism, massive regulation, IQ-based University Testing requirements, which leads to rent-seekers / license holders; the poor are left to sell drug (and shoot each other) in Government run Ghettos. Of course, you want to double down. We need MORE socialism, more taxes, more blaming imaginary 'White Racism', or at other times it's "The Patriarch", or even better "White Males", that's not going to fix the problems Progressive Socialism have created.

But, you're in luck. For now, it seems Americans want more Government 'fixing' social problems / using violence against morally innocent citizens trapped in a geopolitical domain 'for the Good of Society' because 'You Use THE Roads'. LOL

Well, Government has one trick, and that's violence. Let's see how that works out for the Citizens of / property of, the USA.

 

[Michael]

No, my claim is that you deny white racism and its effects on black people in the US.

LOL

Firstly, what are US Black People's IQ scores supposed to be?

Nobody knows.

If you don't know what the average IQ is supposed to be, then you don't even know if White Racism isn't raising it above what it would otherwise be, having no significant effect at all, or lowering it.

Your denial is my claim. You keep repeating it.

Have you figured out if White Racism is raising the average IQ of Black People (and Yellow People) yet? Just wondering how far down your own rabbit hole you've run? Meet the Mad Queen yet?

 

[iceaura]

You'll have to clarify the claim this sentence is attempting to make. What 'effects' on the developing embryos are you referring to?

You don't know? I rest my case.

Selzam, S et al (2016) Predicting Educational Achievement from DNA Molecular Psychiatry http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/MP.2016.107

That's not a "gene-based IQ test". It's not even a gene-based prediction of an IQ test score. For all you - or the authors - know, they've discovered a gene for sitting still for an hour when 10 years old, or a physical appearance that attracts praise, extra help and attention, and higher grades for equivalent work.

Complete and utterly irrational denial.

 

[Michael]

btw: Unless something significant changes and soon, AGW is going to kill the Chinese renaissance. Their military conquest of the headwaters of their major rivers is only going to soften the blow, and give them some leverage over India - not fend it off.

Um, maybe you need to visit China. Economically, Chinese are much freer than the Citizens of the USA (we're not really 'Americans', that'd require a Nation, and a Nation requires a Culture - and we've decided ours sucks and must be destroyed).

Other than a visit, I wouldn't suggest setting up shop in China though. The free-market competition would crush most Westerner's not working for a large corporation. And if you cannot speak Mandarin, you're not going to make any connections anyway.

That said, yes, I agree, Asians generally favor a strong 'Government'. I personally think it's somewhat genetic. In time we'll find out. IMO the pinnacle of human achievement was European. It always has been. Science, philosophy, literature, painting, architecture, civil liberty. From Greece through Roma to modern Europe. That time is gone now. The Europeans have given up on their own cultures. Which will disappear to be replaced by something less. A lesson in the dangers of Socialism. First, it was WWI, then WWII, then 200 million dead thanks to Communism (which infects half the East as well). The West is spent. While I am not sure if the East can rise to the level of cultural achievement as Europeans, they will come close. And technologically, they will easily surpass the West this century.

Anyway, what is, is (unless you're a Socialist, then what is, is what you make up in your head).
LOL
No turning the train around now. Let's see how long before the functionally illiterate public votes to repeal the first amendment. I say, 20 years tops.

 

[iceaura]

Have you figured out if White Racism is raising the average IQ of Black People (and Yellow People) yet?

Every recorded, visible, longstanding, and clearly significant racism-influenced factor potentially affecting black people's IQ scores is negative, afaik. Yellow people I haven't looked into - no reason to.

Um, maybe you need to visit China. Economically, Chinese are much freer than the Citizens of the USA

And all that "freedom" without any of the stuff you've been claiming necessary. I'm just amused at how quickly you abandon stuff you've been ranting about for years.

 

[Michael]

That's not a "gene-based IQ test".

LOL

Get this iceaura, technology takes time to develop. This test is a start. Together with other objective gene-based tests, as well as objective fMRI technology. In time, we won't need an IQ score. We'll have something more robust and useful.

 

[Michael]

Every recorded, visible, longstanding, and clearly significant racism-influenced factor potentially affecting black people's IQ scores is negative, afaik. Yellow people I haven't looked into - no reason to.

Ever recorded, visible, longstanding and clearly significant thetan-level-influenced factor potentially affecting the "Operating Thetan" as "knowing and willing cause over life, thought, and matter, energy, space and time (MEST) in Scientology is negative?

LOL

This is how asinine you sound.

Oh, and 'clearly' significantly is incorrect wording. It's significant or not significant. The significance may or may not be meaningful. Additional statistical tests are required. But we needn't worry about this because you've yet to provide ANY data - at all.

And again, no one cares if there once was a White Person who called a Yellow People a gook. So what? What matters, for YOUR argument, is if enough White People are calling enough Yellow People gooks, to have a significant effect on their IQ scores. Maybe it is? We don't know. Perhaps Yellows in America should have IQ scores even higher. It seems reasonable that we'd maybe record Yellows IQ scores born in other countries and in Asia and compare. That seems reasonable. When we do, we find they are similar. E. Asians simply score higher on the spatial reasoning subtest of an IQ test. This explains why they do better on other tests and are in the highest socioeconomic class in the West, as well as other Eastern and South Eastern Nations.

Lastly, I posted structural racism in the USA. E. Asians are required to score HIGHER than whites or blacks to attend publically funded Universities. That's real structural racism. Yet, to you, this is water off a duck's back. You don't care about 'racism'. What you care about is "The Narrative". Sorry, that story is coming to a close

 

[iceaura]

Get this iceaura, technology takes time to develop. This test is a start.

It's not the start of a gene-based IQ test.

Together with other objective gene-based tests, as well as objective fMRI technology. In time, we won't need an IQ score. We'll have something more robust and useful

The genetic profile of the likely good student, you mean. I can tell you right now what a good segment of it involves - two X chromosomes. That's been obvious for a long time.

I can see where that might be useful, though - obviously, if success in your educational system is significantly skewed or suppressed according to some gene that codes for eye color, or susceptibility to mold allergies, there might be something wrong with your educational system - you should check out what's going on.

Not much to do with IQ, though.