Historicity of Judaism and its symbols

S.A.M.

uniquely dreadful
Valued Senior Member
As I said in another thread, I have been trying to trace the historicity of the major events in Judaism with little success.

What is the origin of Judaism and its major time line of progression?

What are the extra-biblical sources of information for Judaism and specifically, the Jewish religion? I prefer references to historical record, but archaeological record is also appreciated

What is the origin of the synagogue, the menorrah, the star of David. What are the symbols of Judaism which are used to identify Jewish settlements?

This thread is strictly for the religious record and the extrabiblical sources that support or oppose it.

TIA
 
As I said in another thread, I have been trying to trace the historicity of the major events in Judaism with little success.

What is the origin of Judaism and its major time line of progression?

What are the extra-biblical sources of information for Judaism and specifically, the Jewish religion? I prefer references to historical record, but archaeological record is also appreciated

What is the origin of the synagogue, the menorrah, the star of David. What are the symbols of Judaism which are used to identify Jewish settlements?

This thread is strictly for the religious record and the extrabiblical sources that support or oppose it.

TIA

I believe the star of David is not a true symbol of the religion of Judaism. I has come to be associated with the Jews but i believe it has pagan origins and is in fact a curse placed upon the jewish people. It is a common expression that to place a curse upon someone is to "put a hex on them" The centre of the star of David is a Hexagon a Hex. Many Jews believe that the star of David comes from king Solomon, But the bible does record that Solomon did promote pagan beliefs in Israel. He allowed altars of pagan gods to be built in israel.

1 Kings 11
5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not fully follow the LORD, as did his father David. 7 Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, on the hill that is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the abomination of the people of Ammon. 8 And he did likewise for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.

So i believe the star of David had it's origins in pagan worship, Earlier scriptures identify a star with pagan worship:

Amos 5
25Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel? 26But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves. 27Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts.


So i believe the star of David comes from paganism not from true torah Judaism. Here is a link to an interesting read:


http://www.jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/jewish/star-of-david.html


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
I believe the star of David is not a true symbol of the religion of Judaism. I has come to be associated with the Jews but i believe it has pagan origins and is in fact a curse placed upon the jewish people. It is a common expression that to place a curse upon someone is to "put a hex on them" The centre of the star of David is a Hexagon a Hex. Many Jews believe that the star of David comes from king Solomon, But the bible does record that Solomon did promote pagan beliefs in Israel. He allowed altars of pagan gods to be built in israel.

1 Kings 11
5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not fully follow the LORD, as did his father David. 7 Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, on the hill that is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the abomination of the people of Ammon. 8 And he did likewise for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.

So i believe the star of David had it's origins in pagan worship, Earlier scriptures identify a star with pagan worship:

Amos 5
25Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel? 26But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves. 27Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts.


So i believe the star of David comes from paganism not from true torah Judaism. Here is a link to an interesting read:


http://www.jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/jewish/star-of-david.html


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I see your as ignorant of paganism as you are of christianity
 
As I said in another thread, I have been trying to trace the historicity of the major events in Judaism with little success. What is the origin of Judaism and its major time line of progression?
Bear in mind that Christianity and Islam were founded in a much later era than Judaism, when there were civilizations all around with compulsive recordkeeping systems. I don't know how much contemporary reporting you can hope to find. How many written records on any subject do we have from the Mesopotamian civilizations of the day, and what portion of them are likely to have much to say about the Canaanites in their little backwater?
What are the extra-biblical sources of information for Judaism and specifically, the Jewish religion? I prefer references to historical record, but archaeological record is also appreciated.
Lots of luck! As I pointed out in another thread, we've all been relying on the biblical account of the Exile in Egypt and the return to Israel, which are fundamental events in the formation of Judaic doctrine. God agreed to free them from bondage and take them back to Israel, and in gratitude they agreed to evangelize their spiffy new monotheistic religion to all of humanity: this is the Covenant and this is why they are God's Chosen People. They failed to uphold their side of the bargain: Judaism is not evangelical and very few converts have been made over the millennia. As a result, God has been punishing his Chosen People ever since and Judaism is, in essence, a religion of shame and woe.

Yet I now see occasional reports of new archeological evidence suggesting that the Jews were not slaves in Egypt at all but merely migrant workers, and that entire segment of their history is merely a fable. I think somebody posted it on SciForums a few weeks ago.

I don't know how this controversy is going to turn out. But if something this important and fundamental is open to question, how much luck do you think you're going to have finding the "true story" behind the minutiae of Judaica? Like I said, good luck!
What is the origin of the synagogue, the menorah, the star of David.
I once tried to track down the Mogen David and it was a very unsatisfying experience. Apparently it was just one tribe's minor little doodle for most of history, and only in the last few hundred years did the Jewish community seize on it as a symbol of their people and their religion.

BTW, menorah has only one R. It's not a gynecological disorder. ;)
 
I believe the star of David is not a true symbol of the religion of Judaism. I has come to be associated with the Jews but i believe it has pagan origins and is in fact a curse placed upon the jewish people. It is a common expression that to place a curse upon someone is to "put a hex on them" The centre of the star of David is a Hexagon a Hex. Many Jews believe that the star of David comes from king Solomon, But the bible does record that Solomon did promote pagan beliefs in Israel. He allowed altars of pagan gods to be built in israel.

1 Kings 11
5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not fully follow the LORD, as did his father David. 7 Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, on the hill that is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the abomination of the people of Ammon. 8 And he did likewise for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.

So i believe the star of David had it's origins in pagan worship, Earlier scriptures identify a star with pagan worship:

Amos 5
25Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel? 26But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves. 27Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts.

So i believe the star of David comes from paganism not from true torah Judaism. Here is a link to an interesting read:

http://www.jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/jewish/star-of-david.html
*************
M*W: Of course, they were sun-worshippers when they came out of Egypt as the Hibiru. They were pagans. Moses (Akhenaten) tried to force his sun-god (monotheistic) worship on them when actually, they believed in many gods (pagan). You know, when they built the golden calf while Moses was on top of Mt. Sinai to get closer to the sun! That burning bush probably ignited from the heat, which was a common happening.

The Hibiru were nomads. They traveled in the cool of the night and followed the stars. They named the stars and created images out of the stars they connected. That became their religion, because it was a fun thing to do. Hence, they used the images of the sun and the Star of David. You were correct when you said it was from Solomon, the Seal of Solomon (sun-of-man). It was a hexagram and was supposed to be used to win favor with the gods (constellations). The Habiru were pagans, and believed in many gods. The menorah is an astrological symbol.

http://pillar-of-enoch.com/essays/Four_Divine_Symbols_Essay.pdf
 
BTW, menorah has only one R. It's not a gynecological disorder. ;)

Ta :p

While reading about the Ugaritic deities, I came across some information on the menorah [single r]. Apparently Ashereh the wife of El [or Yehweh, his son, depending on which source you access], was the symbol of fertility and was portrayed by the Tree of Life. Apparently it was common in temples dedicated to Ashereh to have a stump with 9 branches on it depicting the 9 months of gestation. The Old Testament is hostile to Ashereh and there are exhortations to burn these wooden stumps wherever they are found. Some biblical scholars suggest this is the pagan origin of the menorah.

Does anyone here know about this?

A thought occurred to me, if El is the Father and Yehweh his Son, is Yehweh like Jesus? Is there an entity in the aboriginal Jewish pantheon who could stand in for the holy spirit?
 
SAM said:
While reading about the Ugaritic deities, I came across some information on the menorah [single r]. Apparently Ashereh the wife of El [or Yehweh, his son, depending on which source you access], was the symbol of fertility and was portrayed by the Tree of Life. Apparently it was common in temples dedicated to Ashereh to have a stump with 9 branches on it depicting the 9 months of gestation. The Old Testament is hostile to Ashereh and there are exhortations to burn these wooden stumps wherever they are found. Some biblical scholars suggest this is the pagan origin of the menorah.

Does anyone here know about this?
No.

You choose an oddly irrelevant and specialized little corner of the ancient world to obsess about. That kind of dry and nitpicking scholarship over many years hardly seems your style, and its presence on this forum a bit strange.

You would find better sources of information (and far more political relevance, if that is of any interest) in the origins and details of the English Arthurian legends. Just to mention something that matters directly these days.
 
I got interested in it because of the IP crisis - but I have always been interested in religions, Eastern more than Western, but all of them nevertheless. There are, I think enough discussions on sciforums to show that. And I always nitpick - you could hardly have missed that :p

But by all means start a thread on the relevance of Arthurian Legends. I know about them only from movies and stories about Arthur and Merlin in school, but I would be interested in reading more.

Anyway, while googling star of david, I found this in a post by Liebling

The first mention of the six-pointed star in Israelite literature was in Amos 5:6, when YAWEH angrily tells His people that " I hate and despise your feast days…. You shall take up Siccuth, your king and Chiun your images, the star of your God…." Siccuth (Sakkuth) and Chiun (Kaiwan) means "star" and refers to Saturn as a star, and was objects of idolatrous worship, as they were considered to be Assyrian gods. The mixed multitude that went out of Egypt with the children of Israel took the star with them. Like the obelisk, the six-pointed star was an Egyptian idol used in idolatrous worship. In 922 B.C. when Solomon married the daughter of Pharoah, he became involved in Egyptian idol worship and went into magic, and witchcraft. Solomon built an altar to Ashtoreth and Moloch, and the six-pointed star, the chief symbol of human sacrifices in magic and witchcraft circles, came to be called the Seal of Solomon.

Solomon did not heed the subsequent warnings from God to cease from these abominable practices, even after God threatened to rend the Kingdom of Israel from his son's hand. And indeed, the split occurred after Solomon's death. Solomon's idolatry caused the Kingdom of Israel to be split in two. The practices he introduced to the children of Israel eventually caused the House of Israel to go into exile into the Caucasus, and the House of Judah to go into captivity. It was Josiah who later destroyed this forbidden altar. Did you know that the number 666 was connected to Solomon? (1 Kings 10:14) Yes, 666 talents of gold was sent to Solomon each month by none other than the King of Tyrus. After you have read this account in the book of 1 Kings, turn to Ezekiel Chapter 28. Oh, what a tangled web was weaved, when Solomon practised to deceive. King Solomon left many articles which proved his blatant idolatry, such as King Solomon's Mirror, King Solomon's Comb, and the six-pointed star, which became known as the Seal of Solomon in the witchcraft and occult world. Solomon also laid down the foundations of the Craft (Daniel 8:25) which later became known as Freemasonry., and the six-pointed star features prominently in Masonic rituals.

King David was Solomon's father, but he was never an idolater. He made it absolutely clear that God Himself was his shield, not only in Psalm 3:3 but in Psalm 28:7, Psalm 119:114, and Psalm 144:2.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=2469393
 
Last edited:
SAM said:
Anyway, while googling star of david, I found this in a post by Liebling
You do realize that none of that has much of anything to do with "historicity", right?

That there was no King Solomon, no migration out of Egypt, none of that, in the world of physical events?
 
You do realize that none of that has much of anything to do with "historicity", right?

That there was no King Solomon, no migration out of Egypt, none of that, in the world of physical events?

Can we say that unequivocally? Maybe there was no migration of Jews out of Egypt, but thats not to say there was no migration at all. From Liebling's link

M. Hirsch Goldberg in his book The Jewish Connection states: " The Star of David is not of Jewish origin - and the ancient Israelites never used it as their religious symbol"

Who are these "Israelites" he refers to?

In 922 B.C. when Solomon married the daughter of Pharoah, he became involved in Egyptian idol worship and went into magic, and witchcraft. Solomon built an altar to Ashtoreth and Moloch, and the six-pointed star, the chief symbol of human sacrifices in magic and witchcraft circles, came to be called the Seal of Solomon.

Who is this Solomon? And if there isn't one, what does this refer to? The Arabian Nights?

In Medieval Jewish, Christian and Islamic legends, the Seal of Solomon was a magical signet ring said to have been possessed by King Solomon, which variously gave him the power to command demons, genies (or jinni), or to speak with animals.

In one of the Arabian Nights' Entertainments, an evil jinn is described as being imprisoned in a copper bottle for 1,800 years by a lead seal stamped by the ring. Other, later books (Pseudomonarchia Daemonum) manage to fit far more demons in the bottle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_Solomon
 
Last edited:
SAM said:
Who is this Solomon? And if there isn't one, what does this refer to? The Arabian Nights?
He is a character in a story.

What "historicity" do you expect, from these stories?
 
You do realize that none of that has much of anything to do with "historicity", right?

That there was no King Solomon, no migration out of Egypt, none of that, in the world of physical events?
*************
M*W: Thanks for pointing that out again.

'Solomon' was a title rather than a name. This is confusing to those certain individuals who prefer to believe in fantasy rather than history and archeology. Solomon was probably a common title for Amenhotep III, our dear fictional Moses', father. However, 'Moses' was also a title, not a name. His given name was probably 'Aminadab.' We also know him as Amenhotep IV or more familiarly Akhenaten.

Source:

Alan H. Gardiner, Egypt of the Pharaohs (Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1961).

Unfortunately, there were several Moseses in the Egyptian pharaonic line of the Eighteenth Dynasty. The more familiar fictional Moses comes from fokelore originated in the Talmud.

Source:

Ahmed Osman, Moses and Akhenaten: The Secret History of Egypt at the Time of the Exodus, Bear & Company, Rochester, Vermont (1990).
 
MW said:
However, 'Moses' was also a title, not a name

Not according to a source which indicates that Moses is an Egyptian name:

A 20th century Catholic source says that Moses is an Egyptian name, with the same root as Tuth-mose and Ramses. It means "born." Exodus 2:10 gives the etymology. Moses would be the participle of the verb masha. "to draw.[20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses

But I have no clue if this is true.

edit: some more meanderings

The familiar name Moses is actually Moshe in Hebrew. The final -s in the English comes from the ancient Greek translation of the Bible known as the Septuagint: a terminal sigma was added because Greek does not permit masculine proper nouns to end in a vowel.

The Book of Exodus offers its own explanation of how Moses acquired his name. It’s a pun based on the circumstances of his discovery in a floating basket.

Three months after Moses was born, his mother placed him in a basket and hid him among the reeds along the Nile so that he would survive Pharaoh’s decree to murder all Hebrew baby boys. When Pharaoh’s daughter came to the river to bathe, she spied the baby and adopted him as her own. Moses’ sister, who had been stationed near the river to see what would happen, offered to find a wet nurse for the baby. She returned with Moses’ (and her) own mother.

"And the child grew," the Book of Exodus recounts, "and she [Moses’ mother, masquerading as a nursemaid] brought him to Pharaoh’s daughter, and he became her son; and she named him Moses (Hebrew, Moshe), for she said, ‘Because I drew him (meshitihu) out of the water’" (Exodus 2:10, Revised Standard Version).

There are many puzzling things about this statement, beginning with the identity of the woman who names the child. Most likely, "she" is the Egyptian princess, since she had adopted the child as her own and presumably would be the one to name him.1 Yet, it seems improbable that an Egyptian princess would be capable of making such a sophisticated pun in Hebrew, or, for that matter, that she would even give her foster child a Hebrew name.

In any case, let us assume that whoever named Moses knew Hebrew. How valid, then, does the Hebrew etymology seem? As an Egyptologist, I must here rely on the arguments of Hebrew scholars, who generally agree that it simply doesn’t make sense.2 The biblical etymology—which says the baby’s name is based on his having been drawn out of water—would lead one to expect a name that means "the one drawn out" or "he who was drawn"; that is, a passive form. But Moshe has an active participle behind it;3 the name means "the one who draws." (That’s why Isaiah calls him "the drawer" of his people [Isaiah 6:3].) The passive form would result in a name like Mashuy, not Moshe.

The Egyptian language provides a far more plausible etymology.4 The name Moses is related to common Egyptian names like Amenmose, Ramose and Thutmose,* which are formed of a god’s name followed by mose.5 These compound names mean something like "Amen is born" or "Born of Amen" or "The offspring of Ra" or "The child of Thoth." When the name Mose appears by itself, as it occasionally does in Egyptian, it simply means "the Child" or "the Offspring."6 But in Egyptian, Mose most frequently appears along with the name of a god as part of a compound name.

Most likely of all, the name Moses (assuming that he originally had a longer name) is short for Ramose, a popular name related to the name of the reigning pharaoh, Ramesses II.**—would also mean "Ra is born," but his name is normally written R‘-ms-sw (roughly, Ramessu) and means "Ra-fashioned him," using another meaning of the verb msi, that is, "to fashion, form." The two senses of the verb are related, however, in that Egyptians thought of the fashioning of a divine statue as equivalent to the god being born.) It was a common custom among the Egyptians to rename foreign slaves or captives after the pharaoh.

The technical term for a compound name with a divine element is a "theophoric" or "theophorous" name, derived from a Greek word meaning "bearing [derived from] a god."7

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/920412/posts

A more scholarly source:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/542944

iceaura said:
He is a character in a story.

What "historicity" do you expect, from these stories?

I believe mythology is usually the result of oral traditions based on some facts though not necessarily the ones you end up thinking are facts.

What does the exodus really represent? Were any people exiled by the Egyptians?
 
Last edited:
SAM said:
I believe mythology is usually the result of oral traditions based on some facts though not necessarily the ones you end up thinking are facts.
So little if any "historicity" at all, then.

SAM said:
What does the exodus really represent? Were any people exiled by the Egyptians?
Why would it "really" represent anything other than what it represents now, or in particular anything to do with historical events directly?
 
So little if any "historicity" at all, then.

Why would it "really" represent anything other than what it represents now, or in particular anything to do with historical events directly?

Only if you believe that facts represent history rather than myth. One may never be able to find anything at all, but surely the absence of any evidence of the exodus in the timeline given by the Bible raises questions as to what it really represents?
 
Not according to a source which indicates that Moses is an Egyptian name:
*************
M*W: I will try to answer this as best as I can without having it go into WWIII.

I have used the source: Ahmed Osman: Moses and Akhenaten: The Secret History of Egypt at the Time of the Exodus, Bear & Company, 1990.

IMO, the scholars are juggling the differences between a name and title. There are differences as I understand them.

edit: some more meanderings

The familiar name Moses is actually Moshe in Hebrew. The final -s in the English comes from the ancient Greek translation of the Bible known as the Septuagint: a terminal sigma was added because Greek does not permit masculine proper nouns to end in a vowel.
*************
M*W: Yes, this is the Hebrew version, but I prefer the Egyptian version since it seems to be the more accurate and logical translation.

The Book of Exodus offers its own explanation of how Moses acquired his name. It’s a pun based on the circumstances of his discovery in a floating basket.
*************
M*W: I don't know if "pun" is a totally accurate description. IMO only, the Book of Exodus can't be totally relied upon.

Continued:

Three months after Moses was born, his mother placed him in a basket and hid him among the reeds along the Nile so that he would survive Pharaoh’s decree to murder all Hebrew baby boys. When Pharaoh’s daughter came to the river to bathe, she spied the baby and adopted him as her own. Moses’ sister, who had been stationed near the river to see what would happen, offered to find a wet nurse for the baby. She returned with Moses’ (and her) own mother."

This familiar account of the birth of Moses has some curious aspects. It hardly seems logical that a mother, anxious to preservethe life of her three-month-old son, would set him afloat on the Nile in such a frail craft. Then, after the intervention of the princess, we have no further indication that, having been returned to his mother, the child was still in danger of losing his life. Finally, the explanation of his later being reared in the palace becaouse the princess adopted him seems inherently improbable as the customs of the time would not have allowed an unmarried pricess to adopt a child.

The Book of Exodus provides no details of the childhood of Moses. We next hear of him when he was grown up.

And continued...

"And the child grew," the Book of Exodus recounts, "and she [Moses’ mother, masquerading as a nursemaid] brought him to Pharaoh’s daughter, and he became her son; and she named him Moses (Hebrew, Moshe), for she said, ‘Because I drew him (meshitihu) out of the water’" (Exodus 2:10, Revised Standard Version).
*************
M*W: I have read several places where derivation of the name "Mo-" seems to mean "taken out of the water." Again, that could and probably is a title. I remember reading (no telling where) that the child's given name was Aminadab. The mother named him and had him set sail down the Nile.

There are many puzzling things about this statement, beginning with the identity of the woman who names the child. Most likely, "she" is the Egyptian princess, since she had adopted the child as her own and presumably would be the one to name him.1 Yet, it seems improbable that an Egyptian princess would be capable of making such a sophisticated pun in Hebrew, or, for that matter, that she would even give her foster child a Hebrew name."
*************
M*W: Osman states:

"Apart from a rather muddled chronology at the start of the Book of Exodus, the story of Moses it tells is quite straightforward. However, the picture changes when we examine other holy books and the work of Manetho, the third century BC native Egyptian historian, which was subsequently transmitted by the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus."

In any case, let us assume that whoever named Moses knew Hebrew. How valid, then, does the Hebrew etymology seem? As an Egyptologist, I must here rely on the arguments of Hebrew scholars, who generally agree that it simply doesn’t make sense.2 The biblical etymology—which says the baby’s name is based on his having been drawn out of water—would lead one to expect a name that means "the one drawn out" or "he who was drawn"; that is, a passive form. But Moshe has an active participle behind it;3 the name means "the one who draws." (That’s why Isaiah calls him "the drawer" of his people [Isaiah 6:3].) The passive form would result in a name like Mashuy, not Moshe.

"The Egyptian language provides a far more plausible etymology.4 The name Moses is related to common Egyptian names like Amenmose, Ramose and Thutmose,* which are formed of a god’s name followed by mose.5 These compound names mean something like "Amen is born" or "Born of Amen" or "The offspring of Ra" or "The child of Thoth." When the name Mose appears by itself, as it occasionally does in Egyptian, it simply means "the Child" or "the Offspring."6 But in Egyptian, Mose most frequently appears along with the name of a god as part of a compound name."
*************
M*W: I'm okay with that...

"Most likely of all, the name Moses (assuming that he originally had a longer name) is short for Ramose, a popular name related to the name of the reigning pharaoh, Ramesses II.**—would also mean "Ra is born," but his name is normally written R‘-ms-sw (roughly, Ramessu) and means "Ra-fashioned him," using another meaning of the verb msi, that is, "to fashion, form." The two senses of the verb are related, however, in that Egyptians thought of the fashioning of a divine statue as equivalent to the god being born.) It was a common custom among the Egyptians to rename foreign slaves or captives after the pharaoh."
*************
M*W: Sounds good...
The technical term for a compound name with a divine element is a "theophoric" or "theophorous" name, derived from a Greek word meaning "bearing [derived from] a god."7
*************
M*W: I'll just throw this in for thought...

"Tiye had a son, Tuthmosis, disappeared in mysterious circumstances. Her second son--given the name (or title of) Amenhotep, but remembered by the world as Moses--was born, probably in 1394BC, at the fortified frontier city of Zarw on the eastern boundaries of Egypt proper. Zarw had been presented to Tiye by the king as a kind of summer palace where she could be near to her Israelite relations, who had been allowed to settle at Goshen in the Eastern Delta rather than Egypt itself because Asiatic shepherds had been "anathema" to Egyptians since the successful invasion of Egypt by the Hyskos in the seventeenth century BC."

Source: Ahmed Osman, Jesus in the House of the Pharaohs: The Essene Revelations on the Historical Jesus, Bear & Company, Vermont, 1992.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/920412/posts But I have no clue if this is true.
*************
M*W: Neither do I...

A more scholarly source:

*************
M*W: I would agree. Alan H. Gardiner, in his Egypt of the Pharaohs, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1961, chronologs the Eighteenth Dynasty.

I believe mythology is usually the result of oral traditions based on some facts though not necessarily the ones you end up thinking are facts.
*************
M*W: That's the problem between oral tradition and factual history. Seems to me that oral tradition exists where there is no factual history. This is my problem with the OT/NT. I simply cannot rely on it for factual history.

What does the exodus really represent? Were any people exiled by the Egyptians?
*************
M*W: I'll tell you what I think. The "Exodus" of the bible doesn't mean the Habiru hauled ass outta Egypt. I think it meant the leaving of one religious myth for another. The Egyptians were worshipping their panthea of gods, and the Habiru wanted to worship their monotheistic god, the Sun and the Sun only.
 
Last edited:
SAM said:
One may never be able to find anything at all, but surely the absence of any evidence of the exodus in the timeline given by the Bible raises questions as to what it really represents?
Sure. But the question of what it "really" represents is not answered by "historicity".

What it represents to the people telling and hearing, is what it represents. Really.
 
Sure. But the question of what it "really" represents is not answered by "historicity".

What it represents to the people telling and hearing, is what it represents. Really.

Not the way I see it. If there is evidence indicating otherwise, it is foolish to hold on to claims from mythology. But the journey to understanding how religion works is of interest in and of itself.

Did the Red Sea part? No evidence, say archaeologists.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/world/africa/03exodus.html
 
Back
Top