Hiding the truth, in plain sight

[WildBlueYonder]

I was reading comments on Mitt Romney’s speech the other day, about Mormonism & Christianity, when a Jew wrote that that this argument was funny to him, since to Jews Christianity was a cult, which got me to thinking again, about why I left Judaism (& Catholicism before it, but more of that on a separate thread).

Having read the Catholic Bible & the Jewish Bible, I noticed that both were basically the same, so I asked the rabbi, “why did God referred to Himself in the plural (Elohim)? His answer was that God was using the “Royal ‘WE’, like a king or queen would, like the saying”We are not amused”.

That answer did not satisfy me, since it did not answer the problem of what Jesus said, that the Bible spoke of Him, on the road to Emmaus, Jesus used Scripture to reveal Himself to His disciples

I used this version:

The Hebrew Bible in English
according to the JPS 1917 Edition

from: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

26 And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.'
27 And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.

from: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0101.htm

5 For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
6 That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this.

from: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et1009.htm

question: why go to the trouble of translating the Bible into English, if you leave this part in Hebrew: “Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;”?
Answer:to Hide the truth, in plain sight

What does “Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;” mean?

= Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace." (The Masoretic Text 1965)
http://lakesideministries.com/1stCovenant/Genesis/04_GenSect0101_In_The_Beginning.htm

could it be, if that verse was translated into English, it would affirm Jesus?
can't have that, now can we?

שלום

 

[sandy]

It's odd that Jews view Christians as a cult when we view them as God's chosen ones.

If people would spend one tenth the amount of time praising/worshipping/ living for God/Jesus and they do trying to analyze His Word, the world would be a MUCH better place.

 

[SnakeLord]

His answer was that God was using the “Royal ‘WE’, like a king or queen would, like the saying”We are not amused”.

That's certainly interesting but typically when the queen says "we are not amused" she is actually talking to someone else. Who was god talking to?

Why did god say "let us make man.." when there was nobody to hear him say it?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Why did god say "let us make man.." when there was nobody to hear him say it?

answer that, & you'll become a Christian, my friend

 

[SnakeLord]

answer that, & you'll become a Christian, my friend

Man that's worse. Frankly I'll accept that after an eternity of loneliness god's a little kooky in the head. I wont however accept bad christian mathematics. 3 is not 1, 1 is not 3. They should at least have the decency to embrace polytheism. What's wrong with it?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

I wont however accept bad christian mathematics. 3 is not 1, 1 is not 3.

to paraphrase & expand on the movie "Contact", my friend "that's because you still look at the evidence with earthly eyes, if you are going to understand God, you need to see Him through Vegan eyes". at the minimum, God is multi-dimensional/multi-chronological, remember the "message" in "Contact" & how it was deciphered? we are 4-dimensional beings (3-D plus "moving forward time"), trying to define an infinite being, that sees the past, present & future at the same time, created this universe, the laws of nature (which are the ones He put in place), (btw even some secular scientist are seeing we're special, read "Rare Earth" by Peter D. Ward & Donald Brownlee).
and we are trying to put God in a box, understand Him, I think that the closest you can come up with understanding God, is through science-fiction, not Star Trek or Star Wars (G.R & J.L., still saw through 'human' eyes), but Arthur C. Clarke or Frederick Pohl

God is not human, not an earthling, He is Alien, but choose to become 'human' as Jesus, when you see God as a Vegan, would do you see a bi-pedal humanoid or some multi-plasmic/ multi-dimensional being, that the human eyes (& mind) would see as "3"?

They should at least have the decency to embrace polytheism. What's wrong with it?

there is only One God, who gave His name to Moses as "I AM THAT I AM", a name that Jesus had embedded in His, Yeshua

After the Babylonian Exile, the Jews who continued use of this name Yehoshua` but they condensed its form to Yeshua.

Yehoshua or Joshua (OT:3091) prefixes oshea with a contracted form of Yahweh and connotes one of several possibilities for its meaning as:

Yahweh is salvation,
Yahweh is deliverance,
Yahweh delivers,
Yahweh saved,
Yahweh is his help
Yahweh by him would save
Yahweh is deliverance or magnificence

from: http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/QA_savior.htm

 

[SnakeLord]

God is not human, not an earthling...

In saying, down the shitter goes anything said about such a being, indeed including the idea of a 3in1 god that is not anywhere mentioned in biblical texts. Oh well.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

In saying, down the shitter goes anything said about such a being, indeed including the idea of a 3in1 god that is not anywhere mentioned in biblical texts. Oh well.

ahh, my Biblical scholar friend, did you know this?

Elohim (אֱלוֹהִים , אלהים ) is a Hebrew word which expresses concepts of divinity. It is apparently related to the Hebrew word ēl, though morphologically it consists of the Hebrew word Eloah (אלוה) with a plural suffix. Elohim is the third word in the Hebrew text of Genesis and occurs frequently throughout the Hebrew Bible. Its exact significance is often disputed.

In some cases (e.g. Exodus 3:4, "... Elohim called unto him out of the midst of the bush ..."), it acts as a singular noun in Hebrew grammar (see next section), and is then generally understood to denote the single God of Israel.

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim

or this?

5 For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
6 That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this.
from: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et1009.htm

taken from this:

The Hebrew Bible in English
according to the JPS 1917 Edition
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

question: why go to the trouble of translating the Bible into English, if you leave this part in Hebrew: “Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;”?
Answer:to Hide the truth, in plain sight

What does “Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;” mean?

= Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace." (The Masoretic Text 1965)
from: http://lakesideministries.com/1stCovenant/Genesis/04_GenSect0101_In_The_Beginning.htm

let's see, Isaiah says a child is born, that is called, “Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom"


Snake, thats just a few, Jesus told 2 of His disciples the whole story on the Road to Emmaus

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luk 24:28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
Luk 24:29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed [it], and brake, and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

from: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk024.html#13

 

[SnakeLord]

Snake, thats just a few, Jesus told 2 of His disciples the whole story on the Road to Emmaus

Well well, let's look at what god thinks:

Hebrews 5:4
No one takes this honour upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. 5So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,
"You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.” And he says in another place,
"You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."

It basically shows that god gives jesus a job as high priest, not god. A job needless to say that has been held by others - including Melchizedek who was not born and does not die. Indeed unlike jesus, melchizedeks name appears in both the OT and NT.

Then we could look at other statements:

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honour because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

jesus was "made". Colossians states he was the "first born" and this passage in hebrews shows he was made - and not made, born or created as a god, but lower than even the angels.

Then we have..

Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

He wasn't perfect as a god is, no.. he had to be "made" perfect just to get a job that isn't unique to him.

Failing that god is supposedly omniscient. This means that god knows everything. If there is an instance of god not knowing something he is not god. The very second someone espouses that god does not know something, he becomes a second rate entity.

Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father..”

Simply put, this shows jesus cannot be "the one god". By his lack of omniscience he cannot be god, he can only be a second rate entity.

Of course you could now argue that god knew everything while not knowing everything at the same time, but that is to descend into absolute pointless idiocy. You could argue that god is all powerful while not being all powerful at the same time which is an argument in idiocy. Etc etc etc.

Not to mention the various other nonsensical, pathetic statements that would occur as seen in these quotes:

"god did not take the glory of being high priest upon himself. god did."

"During his days on earth god offered up prayers to god in the hopes that he could save himself from death"

The trinity is 1 big example of idiocy 3 times over.

 

[Myles]

The Trinity exceeds best supermarket practice. Buy 1, get 2 free

 

[spidergoat]

I don't think it affirms Jesus, but it does affirm peace, which is problematic.

The royal "we" could refer to the concept that we are all aspects of God, not separate.