Health Care Bill Debate

Well, it's the end of August and I'm sick. I have a sore throat and it feels like I have a fever (my body feels heavy and sluggish, I go from feeling freezing cold to burning hot for no apparent reason, etc.).

Am I going to die? If so, my wife inherits all my stuff. But you may be able to talk her into giving away my guns. :shrug:
 
As a Canadian I have a HUGE beef with the Canadian health care system. With both the quality of it, and the terrible wait times.

Over the last 13 years, only ONE time did I get excellent treatment. I don't know how it is in America other than reading conflicting accounts from 2 partisan camps, but I can tell you that in Canada it's SH1T.

Some areas are better than others, obviously, but overall I'd give it a D-.

funny all my family in Toronto says the health care system is great and the only people who complain are idealougues as do the ones in Montréal and Vancouver.
 
funny all my family in Toronto says the health care system is great and the only people who complain are idealougues as do the ones in Montréal and Vancouver.

*Borders open

*Moving your choice

*Take advantage of it

*Go north & take Barry with you!
 
*Borders open

*Moving your choice

*Take advantage of it

*Go north & take Barry with you!

nice to see your posts are up to the normal level of intelligence of ayn rand supporters. Why we should fix this country rather than move to a better one.
 
nice to see your posts are up to the normal level of intelligence of ayn rand supporters. Why we should fix this country rather than move to a better one.

Nice to see your intelligence level hasn't been confused with genius or authentic America.

We are the better country, bub. In fact, we are still the greatest country; irrespective of how much blind fascism is being infused.
 
Nice to see your intelligence level hasn't been confused with genius or authentic America.
actually it has but that's a different story.

We are the better country, bub.
not really. More crime, more death, and less happy.
In fact, we are still the greatest country; irrespective of how much blind fascism is being infused.
No we aren't mainly because people like you are sitting on your asses saying how great we are rather than working on fixing the damn problems besetting us. America didn't become great by basking in are own inflated sense of worth but by fixing our problems and growing.
 
actually it has but that's a different story.

not really. More crime, more death, and less happy. No we aren't mainly because people like you are sitting on your asses saying how great we are rather than working on fixing the damn problems besetting us. America didn't become great by basking in are own inflated sense of worth but by fixing our problems and growing.

because people like you are sitting on your asses saying

Funny because the countervaling thought is that this was how we suddenly became a bad country. From _____ like you who sit around and lament everything the United States does as something evil or of ill repute.

But I'll give you credit for this:

America didn't become great by basking in are own inflated sense of worth but by fixing our problems and growing

Never have you ever said truer words, your problem is whatever you think the damn solution is. How about leave government out and let the people get to work and return us to where we were before the Obama crisis. And yes, it is Obama's crisis. Listen to him and you shall learn.
 
because people like you are sitting on your asses saying

Funny because the countervaling thought is that this was how we suddenly became a bad country. From _____ like you who sit around and lament everything the United States does as something evil or of ill repute.

But I'll give you credit for this:

America didn't become great by basking in are own inflated sense of worth but by fixing our problems and growing

Never have you ever said truer words, your problem is whatever you think the damn solution is. How about leave government out and let the people get to work and return us to where we were before the Obama crisis. And yes, it is Obama's crisis. Listen to him and you shall learn.

and once again showing why a lot of people feel Ayn Rand supporters aren't the brightest bulb of the bunch.
 
The Canadian health system is one of the best in the world : you see any doctor without paying a cent, you go to any hospital without paying a cent for all kinds of tests, if you can not afford medicine or if you are not insured for drugs, you get government help . So what is bad with all that ?!!!.

Yes, if you survive the waiting period to get to the Doctor, or if they send you to the U.S. for treatment.

Now why is the Canadian System going broke? and Canada's Doctors are moving South to open new practices in the U.S.?

2 of my Doctors at V.A. are Canadians, and they moved to the U.S. to escape the Canadian system, which I find hilarious, the V.A. System is a better system to work for them the Canadian System.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
David Gratzer

Socialized medicine has meant rationed care and lack of innovation. Small wonder Canadians are looking to the market.

Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively, unlike conventional chemotherapies that more crudely kill all fast-growing cells in the body—and Aucoin went to a clinic to begin treatment. But if Erbitux offered hope, Aucoin’s insurance didn’t: she received one inscrutable form letter after another, rejecting her claim for reimbursement. Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.

When Aucoin appealed to an official ombudsman, the Ontario government claimed that her treatment was unproven and that she had gone to an unaccredited clinic. But the FDA in the U.S. had approved Erbitux, and her clinic was a cancer center affiliated with a prominent Catholic hospital in Buffalo. This January, the ombudsman ruled in Aucoin’s favor, awarding her the cost of treatment. She represents a dramatic new trend in Canadian health-care advocacy: finding the treatment you need in another country, and then fighting Canadian bureaucrats (and often suing) to get them to pick up the tab.................................
.......................

I was once a believer in socialized medicine. I don’t want to overstate my case: growing up in Canada, I didn’t spend much time contemplating the nuances of health economics. I wanted to get into medical school—my mind brimmed with statistics on MCAT scores and admissions rates, not health spending. But as a Canadian, I had soaked up three things from my environment: a love of ice hockey; an ability to convert Celsius into Fahrenheit in my head; and the belief that government-run health care was truly compassionate. What I knew about American health care was unappealing: high expenses and lots of uninsured people. When HillaryCare shook Washington, I remember thinking that the Clintonistas were right.

My health-care prejudices crumbled not in the classroom but on the way to one. On a subzero Winnipeg morning in 1997, I cut across the hospital emergency room to shave a few minutes off my frigid commute. Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care. I soon discovered that the problems went well beyond overcrowded ERs. Patients had to wait for practically any diagnostic test or procedure, such as the man with persistent pain from a hernia operation whom we referred to a pain clinic—with a three-year wait list; or the woman needing a sleep study to diagnose what seemed like sleep apnea, who faced a two-year delay; or the woman with breast cancer who needed to wait four months for radiation therapy, when the standard of care was four weeks.
 
any proof or should we as usually expect every one to do take your word on it.

Yes, pj, just read a news paper, or listen to the news, or just look up the U.S. National Budget, or look up the U.S. National Debit, or just go to us.gov.
it is called research, or how about you proving me wrong by posting a refutation, with citation that the U.S. Debit isn't as stated by me, and the U.S. isn't broke.

Even if we bought all the uninsured insurance, it would still be done with printed money, borowed money, deficit money, the Nation is broke.
 
Indeed. American Indians are, at present, the only people with a right to federally provided healthcare. And you can see what a shit job the government does in providing it. Why? I suppose because Indians are a small, politically weak minority. Clearly, congress allocates its funds according to politics, not need and not even in accordance with long standing obligations. Would you expect this practice to change if the federal government took over healthcare for us all?

Well its not a sexy issue that will get people to the polls so no one bothers look are infastructure is falling apart and shit is being done about it why not a sexy issue.
 
and once again showing why a lot of people feel Marxist/Socialist supporters aren't the brightest bulb of the bunch
Except I'm not a pure socialist and I am not a marxist. but than most people who throw those around don't know what they entail.
 
and once again showing why a lot of people feel Marxist/Socialist supporters aren't the brightest bulb of the bunch

they arent even close. first of all claimed socialists are not even socialists, even if they decalre 'i am a socialist' does not matter. they arent Socialists because they dont do anything that makes them a socialist, plus it is not human nature anyway. more appropriate would be failed Capitalist.
 
Now why is the Canadian System going broke?
Because they have not modelled their healthcare system after the French. I'm no fan of the French, who are not even good for cheese and wine anymore, but give credit where credit is due: their healthcare system blows the whole world completely out of the water.

Socialized medicine has meant rationed care and lack of innovation.
Except in France, which is a world leader in medical innovation and more socialist than Karl Marx and his brother Groucho.
 
Last edited:
Now why is the Canadian System going broke? and Canada's Doctors are moving South to open new practices in the U.S.?

Who says our system is going broke? We hear it all the time from politicians who want to open our medicare to private practice, but they haven't shown us any numbers to justify their claims that they can do it cheaper. Medical expenses are still rising, but that has more to do with people getting old and not having enough youngsters to provide for them, the Baby Boomer effect. My mom has practised medicine here for more than 2 decades and she's been very happy with the system and with her wages. There are lots of doctors who choose to go down to the US, and probably a lot of them can make more money because in the US you can practically hold patients hostage. There are also lots of Americans who choose to come to Canada to practice, highly qualified individuals come here from all over the world to practice medicine, and I know many, many such people in person. Besides, America spends twice as much money per capita on its health care, yet even US studies show the Canadian system provides better care on average, far more bang for the buck.

Do private insurance companies stand to lose some profits from nationalizing American health care? Absolutely they do. Did Rockefeller stand to lose profits when America broke up his monopoly and made oil affordable? Absolutely. And this is the way it should be. Do you like paying higher premiums to your healthcare provider because you don't have any other choice? Is that what you want, to have a small number of companies working in league to make sure they milk the most they can out of you next time you get whiplash or break your arm? My roommate just got back from the US after being involved in a nasty car accident. She spent a single day in hospital receiving pain meds and a neck brace. The bill: 4000 FREAKING US DOLLARS! WTF? $4000 could have got her a neck brace and a luxurious stay at the Ritz Carlton, with pain meds AND champagne.

Funny how the Republican party is calling Obama a NAZI (guess then the UK, France, Sweden, and good 'ole Canuckistan must be NAZI too) for wanting to nationalize healthcare. Ooooh look out folks, if the government thinks any of you are untermenschen, it will not spend your tax dollars caring for you. Never mind that something like 20% of your population doesn't receive any healthcare whatsoever as it already stands, I guess those people don't get counted as untermenschen being dumped by American society?
 
Captain, there's a weekly show on CBC Radio 1 about the state of the Canadian healthcare system.

White Coat, Black Art

It's run by doctors, and guests are other doctors and other Canadian healthcare professionals, and researchers. I listened to it twice and got scared... especially the difference between how things used to be decades ago, and how things are going now.

For example, a few decades ago, doctors would compete like hell for patients. But today patients compete for doctors. Even with a personal referral of a family member, you are likely to not be accepted by a family doctor who is completely overloaded. Doctors on that radio show said how hard it is for them to say no to patients, but they have to because if they take "just one more" then the rest of their patients will suffer.

That's just one example.

Check out the above website, maybe you'll find recorded podcasts.

EDIT:

Here's a link to the show's podcasts.
 
Let's not forget who the "disgruntled Canadians" are, they are being supported to by Republicans and the healthcare industry in the US. Republicans and their healthcare industry allies in the US are hiring folks from Canada and Europe to say fearful things about their native healthcare systems.

In the case of David Gratzer, he is funded by the Manhattan Insititute for Policy Research, a Republican front organization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Institute


I like this little clip, Gratzer got his private parts in a wringer when he had to confront some cold hard facts about healthare that ran contrary to what he has been mouthing. :)

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?d...avid-gratzer-straight=&i=RElJN3Y4cWuRpeWVSanM


It seems Gratzer is best known for his misuse of statistics and data. That makes him well qualified for his current job.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Gratzer


Why am I not suprised?
 
Last edited:
buffalo said:
2 of my Doctors at V.A. are Canadians, and they moved to the U.S. to escape the Canadian system, which I find hilarious, the V.A. System is a better system to work for them the Canadian System.
Yes, the US single payer setups are pretty good, for doctors and everybody. Your examples of the superior level of care you receive under your government single payer plan enlighten us all.
buffalo said:
Yes, if you survive the waiting period to get to the Doctor, - - .
Are wait times in Canada longer than wait times in the US?

I haven't been able to find a reasonably comparable wait time statistic for the US. There was survey of people with French level insurance in the US, comparing their wait times with similarly afflicted French people, that found the French had shorter wait times on average, but that was not Canada or average US people.

I do know that all of my acquaintances - every single one - has been seriously delayed in seeing a doctor, one time or another. Some of them have gone untreated for years, others simply had to wait a few months for their appointments or insurance company permission, etc.

One of the less publicised problems with establishing a modern, First World medical care setup in the US is the backlog of untreated stuff that has built up over the past thirty years or so (since US medical costs started to really balloon). We can see a shadow of this in the troubles afflicting Medicare, as tens of thousands of people hit 65 and bring their untreated afflictions to the doc long after the treatments would have been much cheaper. Clearly the wait times for a lot of people in the US are measured in years.
 
Ice you are quite correct, the reason you will have trouble finding metrics on US healthcare is because for decades the health industry has fought record keeping and performance metrics. Gee, I wonder why.
 
otheadp said:
It's run by doctors, and guests are other doctors and other Canadian healthcare professionals, and researchers. I listened to it twice and got scared... especially the difference between how things used to be decades ago, and how things are going now.
It's going to be interesting in Canada if their system collapses to the US norm.

Maybe they could figure out how to get reimbursed for the costs of treating the US border-jumpers - even at Canadian half-prices, the US folks would be getting a bargain, and the Canucks could shore up some of their infrastructure.
 
Back
Top