That's all well and good, but when you said:
From what I read of Mad's link there is no "IMPLOSION" mentioned in the arti cle...just more scare tactics.
Health Care Bill Debate
- Thread starter madanthonywayne
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From what I read of Mad's link there is no "IMPLOSION" mentioned in the arti cle...just more scare tactics.
But if you notice, they aren't about to give up universal coverage are they? Universal coverage isn't the problem, unless you can point to where in the article they say that.
The difference between Switzerland and France in Health expenditure is pretty small, both are roughly 70% compared to the USA, that would me simplistically if we had their system we would be paying 30% less.
Something like that. It's even more stark when you subtract out the people covered by various government insurance (Medicare, Medicaid, SHIP and the military). Something like 25% of the people in the private market are not covered at all.
:thumbsup: I am in agreement, there isn't much you can complain about when it comes to the Canadian Health Care System.
I watched a News Report not that long ago where they talked to Americans who didn't have medical coverage. This one guy chopped his fingers off while working with his band saw in the garage. They rushed him to the hospital with the severed fingers in a bag of ice. After they examined him they told him how much it would be to attach his fingers. Each finger was something like $12,000 and he couldn't afford the surgery for all his fingers.
Can you imagine that he picked only 2 fingers to attach....because even that was more then he could afford.
I can't imagine making a choice like that. Here in Canada they would re-attach all your fingers without hesitation if they could. It doesn't matter
if you are rich or poor we all get the same treatment.
I can't even imagine a Doctor standing by and only attaching 2 fingers back on a guy when he could attach all of them, if he only had the money.
I had 2 C-Sections when I was pregnant and I just signed off on the bill and left the hospital without paying a penny.
I am self employed so I don't have any company benefits or insurance so without the Health Care System the way it is here I would be SCREWED!
Krugman on "The Swiss Menace"
So it would seem. Paul Krugman writes:
The Nobel laureate economist also notes that, were we starting from square zero, we would probably go a different route than the Swiss model. So those who fear Obama is some sort of communist vampire out to destroy the insurance industry should pause to consider that the route the Democrats seem to have chosen will, in fact, force customers onto their rolls.
_____________________
Notes:
Krugman, Paul. "The Swiss Menace". The New York Times. August 16, 2009. NYTimes.com. August 17, 2009. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/17/opinion/17krugman.html
Iceaura said:
So it would seem. Paul Krugman writes:
It was the blooper heard round the world. In an editorial denouncing Democratic health reform plans, Investor’s Business Daily tried to frighten its readers by declaring that in Britain, where the government runs health care, the handicapped physicist Stephen Hawking “wouldn’t have a chance,” because the National Health Service would consider his life “essentially worthless.”
Professor Hawking, who was born in Britain, has lived there all his life, and has been well cared for by the National Health Service, was not amused.
Besides being vile and stupid, however, the editorial was beside the point. Investor’s Business Daily would like you to believe that Obamacare would turn America into Britain — or, rather, a dystopian fantasy version of Britain. The screamers on talk radio and Fox News would have you believe that the plan is to turn America into the Soviet Union. But the truth is that the plans on the table would, roughly speaking, turn America into Switzerland — which may be occupied by lederhosen-wearing holey-cheese eaters, but wasn’t a socialist hellhole the last time I looked ....
.... Finally, the third route to universal coverage relies on private insurance companies, using a combination of regulation and subsidies to ensure that everyone is covered. Switzerland offers the clearest example: everyone is required to buy insurance, insurers can’t discriminate based on medical history or pre-existing conditions, and lower-income citizens get government help in paying for their policies.
In this country, the Massachusetts health reform more or less follows the Swiss model; costs are running higher than expected, but the reform has greatly reduced the number of uninsured. And the most common form of health insurance in America, employment-based coverage, actually has some “Swiss” aspects: to avoid making benefits taxable, employers have to follow rules that effectively rule out discrimination based on medical history and subsidize care for lower-wage workers.
So where does Obamacare fit into all this? Basically, it’s a plan to Swissify America, using regulation and subsidies to ensure universal coverage.
Professor Hawking, who was born in Britain, has lived there all his life, and has been well cared for by the National Health Service, was not amused.
Besides being vile and stupid, however, the editorial was beside the point. Investor’s Business Daily would like you to believe that Obamacare would turn America into Britain — or, rather, a dystopian fantasy version of Britain. The screamers on talk radio and Fox News would have you believe that the plan is to turn America into the Soviet Union. But the truth is that the plans on the table would, roughly speaking, turn America into Switzerland — which may be occupied by lederhosen-wearing holey-cheese eaters, but wasn’t a socialist hellhole the last time I looked ....
.... Finally, the third route to universal coverage relies on private insurance companies, using a combination of regulation and subsidies to ensure that everyone is covered. Switzerland offers the clearest example: everyone is required to buy insurance, insurers can’t discriminate based on medical history or pre-existing conditions, and lower-income citizens get government help in paying for their policies.
In this country, the Massachusetts health reform more or less follows the Swiss model; costs are running higher than expected, but the reform has greatly reduced the number of uninsured. And the most common form of health insurance in America, employment-based coverage, actually has some “Swiss” aspects: to avoid making benefits taxable, employers have to follow rules that effectively rule out discrimination based on medical history and subsidize care for lower-wage workers.
So where does Obamacare fit into all this? Basically, it’s a plan to Swissify America, using regulation and subsidies to ensure universal coverage.
The Nobel laureate economist also notes that, were we starting from square zero, we would probably go a different route than the Swiss model. So those who fear Obama is some sort of communist vampire out to destroy the insurance industry should pause to consider that the route the Democrats seem to have chosen will, in fact, force customers onto their rolls.
_____________________
Notes:
Krugman, Paul. "The Swiss Menace". The New York Times. August 16, 2009. NYTimes.com. August 17, 2009. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/17/opinion/17krugman.html
My father's in care in Canada, and aside from his own quibbling about not rocking the boat 
rolleyes: FFS...) leading to some hospitalization, the care is fine. I've found it sufficiently patient-centred to protect the health of the recipient. There are wait lists for some things, absolutely. Right now we're having difficulties with the wait time for permanent care homes. I imagine there are ways to improve it, of course. It's a shame that the health care debate here in the US is infested with partisanism.
rolleyes: FFS...) leading to some hospitalization, the care is fine. I've found it sufficiently patient-centred to protect the health of the recipient. There are wait lists for some things, absolutely. Right now we're having difficulties with the wait time for permanent care homes. I imagine there are ways to improve it, of course. It's a shame that the health care debate here in the US is infested with partisanism.For the yanks who complain that if UHC was established there would be wating lists look at it this way
there are 100 procidures per year
there are 200 patients needing this procidure, some patients have to wait because of this and care is decided on need
OR
there are 200 patients needing this procidure, there for these 100 procidures are sold off to the highest bidder. People who could medically aford to wait are given priority because of the ability to pay the inflated price where as those of a lower SES who are more likly to need the procidure more urgently are denied care.
Which is the equitable system. Seems to me that the arguments against UHC are not because of waiting lists, they are because these people are High SES and want preferential treatment inspite of medical need. Its even worse when you look at patient without the ability to pay is denied a operating thearter for say apendasistis so that someone who CAN aford to pay can get a new nose
there are 100 procidures per year
there are 200 patients needing this procidure, some patients have to wait because of this and care is decided on need
OR
there are 200 patients needing this procidure, there for these 100 procidures are sold off to the highest bidder. People who could medically aford to wait are given priority because of the ability to pay the inflated price where as those of a lower SES who are more likly to need the procidure more urgently are denied care.
Which is the equitable system. Seems to me that the arguments against UHC are not because of waiting lists, they are because these people are High SES and want preferential treatment inspite of medical need. Its even worse when you look at patient without the ability to pay is denied a operating thearter for say apendasistis so that someone who CAN aford to pay can get a new nose
The insurance companies and their Republican allies are trying to instill fear in Americans of the healthcare systems in Canada and the UK. They keep telling us that we will have long waits, get inferior care, citizens of those countries are unhappy with the care and their systems are about to collapse in upon itself…none of it grounded in fact. But it works. It keeps that fat cats fat and the dumb gullible followers dumb, fearful and poor.
Less than half of all Americans under the age of 65 have medical coverage comparable to a Canadian citizen's.tyler said:
If you compare Norwegian or French or Swiss, lower yet.
People are counted as "insured" in the US who have $5000 deductibles, 50% copays on medication (that costs double Canada's price) and no covered routine care (like mammograms, or physicals), with incomes of less than $25k.
The US has long wait times, btw. They are just not called wait times - they are called "scheduled appointments". The actual delay between deciding to take one's symptoms to a doc and actually seeing a doc is longer in the US, on average, than it is in (say) France.
I have to confess my own secret personal evil thoughts concerning this topic.
Canada pops up in the U.S news now...because of it's health care system. That my friends TELLS YOU IT MUST BE BETTER. Nothing else makes Americans look north. Not the 100 days Canada ruled the western front in WWI, not owning and taking our own beach on Normandy, not countless brave acts fighting masses of Chinese in Korea, not even the free trade agreement(which we constantly get fucked on), not our borders and fishing rights - constantly treaded upon by a nation born with the slogan "Don't tread on me".
In short, fuck you the United States of America. Fuck you and your health care system. You deserve it. The doorway to the future class system you will enjoy. I have heard Americans say proudly how free their country is and how it is the best in the world in one breath and then tell me how fuckin scared to death they are to say no to extra unpaid work in their next breath. You are all a bunch of fucking slaves. You talk a big fucking talk about being free but you don't live it. Canadians quietly live it. A Canadian can tell an employer to fuck himself and see his doctor the next day right after setting up an appointment with human resources Canada to lodge a complaint for unlawful dismissal.
Health Care is probably the only thing left to separate our 30 millions from the 300 millions down south and their hegemonic bland, retarded, increasingly lame, corporate influenced, consumer culture.
I wish you all the very worst luck in your Health Care reform.
Canada pops up in the U.S news now...because of it's health care system. That my friends TELLS YOU IT MUST BE BETTER. Nothing else makes Americans look north. Not the 100 days Canada ruled the western front in WWI, not owning and taking our own beach on Normandy, not countless brave acts fighting masses of Chinese in Korea, not even the free trade agreement(which we constantly get fucked on), not our borders and fishing rights - constantly treaded upon by a nation born with the slogan "Don't tread on me".
In short, fuck you the United States of America. Fuck you and your health care system. You deserve it. The doorway to the future class system you will enjoy. I have heard Americans say proudly how free their country is and how it is the best in the world in one breath and then tell me how fuckin scared to death they are to say no to extra unpaid work in their next breath. You are all a bunch of fucking slaves. You talk a big fucking talk about being free but you don't live it. Canadians quietly live it. A Canadian can tell an employer to fuck himself and see his doctor the next day right after setting up an appointment with human resources Canada to lodge a complaint for unlawful dismissal.
Health Care is probably the only thing left to separate our 30 millions from the 300 millions down south and their hegemonic bland, retarded, increasingly lame, corporate influenced, consumer culture.
I wish you all the very worst luck in your Health Care reform.
This might be a good time to point out that one of Canada's major problems with its health care system is the estimated 27% of it that is leached out by medical tourists from the US.
That's on top of the brain drain of docs and professionals (including executive talent) drawn by the US inflated salaries and compensation schedules.
You guys probably can't seal that border well enough, so you should be hoping for actual beneficial reform in the US, something that will provide reasonable care at home and take the pressure off the Canadian system.
That's on top of the brain drain of docs and professionals (including executive talent) drawn by the US inflated salaries and compensation schedules.
You guys probably can't seal that border well enough, so you should be hoping for actual beneficial reform in the US, something that will provide reasonable care at home and take the pressure off the Canadian system.
I want CANADIAN DOCTORS, not a fucking mercenary treating me. Fuck the "brains" good fucking riddance.
Remember nietzschefan not every American feels that way. The Republican Party and their dittoheads are a plague upon the land. And there are those of us who are actively fighting the plague. But it is a long hard fight as the dittohead masters own the airwaves and control the media.
maybe we should get the C130's from the UK, canda, NZ and Australia and drop leaflets over the US
A vacine for the dittohead virus might be a better solution
Bah! Obama's "Buy American" pitch to individual states is supremely fucking us. We get fucked by Dems Reps and replublicrates. Even Ross Perot would have fucked us. Individual states did not sign the FTA or NAFTA so I guess WTO has to go through each case individually checking state laws or whatever. In response we should punt Imperial oil and every fucking American from Alberta. I'm so sick of this shit, leave Canada out of your debate, you don't want our healthcare system. It's not "L33t" enough for the slick Willy's that know it all.
what do you guys want? You have the internet, you speak to people outside the US (especially canadians who come across the boarder), you have access to resorces like the ABS, ABC, BBC the same as we do (as far as im awear the ABS doesnt discriminate by IP address and i dont think the ABC does either). What more do you want?
I want you guys to take our dittoheads!
Be warned they will want to walk around with assualt rifles strapped to their backs and 44 Magnum pistoles strapped to their hips.