He spoke to my condition

Pineal

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The title of the thread is something John Holt referred to as a Quaker saying.

He mentions it as part of a story:

John Holt started to learn the Cello as a middle-aged man. At a certain point he met a famous Cellist he admired. They met a few times before the famous man knew he was learning the Cello. At a party the man came over to Holt and said so I hear you play the Cello. John Hold explained how long he had been playing and some of what he was playing, revealing both his limitations but also fairly strong aspirations.

The famous Cellist said something like. Well, we middle-aged people have a number of challenges as learners. To play the Cello requires all sorts of learning and changes on a muscular level (.....). But we have an advantage also. We can find problems and we can find solutions.

Holt was incredibly glad when he heard this and often would think of it in the months and years after. It fit things he was experiencing that were not fully conscious and also things he was conscious of. The short statements met him where he was and were also encouraging.

He spoke to his condition.

Of course relgions have this concept and some caution people about thinking they can just throw 'truths' at someone and the other person will simply get it. Stages, individual problems, individual learning styles and needs, etc.

But.....it seems like most vocal theists do not understand this.
They do not realize that not only are they making a claim about their own knowledge - which may or may not be correct even if the statement is. They are making implicit claims about what you need to hear, when you need to hear it and their abilities to discern this. OR that none of this matters. That simply stating truths should be enough.

So when the receiver gets all these implicit claims, and the 'truths' do not seem to work, they can blame themselves or they can question the understanding - at the very least - of the stater. If this happens enough, it does begin to reflect poorly on the religion itself.

I place this in the religion forum, partly as a tangent from Signal's thread on humility and claims about knowing God. But it can also be used as a criticism against anyone who thinks they know what you need to believe and do - and usually is weak on introspection, interpersonal intuition and skill AND philosophy of language.
 
So is the rant a statement then ? A criticism ? Theists spout lots of stuff . The walking dead really get me roaring . Then again I like blood drinking flesh eating Vampire Zombie stories . There fun for scarring little kids . You can even make em believe they are little bastard sinners . That is a real knee slapper. More fun than a thick leather belt making welts
 
The title of the thread is something John Holt referred to as a Quaker saying.

He mentions it as part of a story:

John Holt started to learn the Cello as a middle-aged man. At a certain point he met a famous Cellist he admired. They met a few times before the famous man knew he was learning the Cello. At a party the man came over to Holt and said so I hear you play the Cello. John Hold explained how long he had been playing and some of what he was playing, revealing both his limitations but also fairly strong aspirations.

The famous Cellist said something like. Well, we middle-aged people have a number of challenges as learners. To play the Cello requires all sorts of learning and changes on a muscular level (.....). But we have an advantage also. We can find problems and we can find solutions.

Holt was incredibly glad when he heard this and often would think of it in the months and years after. It fit things he was experiencing that were not fully conscious and also things he was conscious of. The short statements met him where he was and were also encouraging.

He spoke to his condition.

Of course relgions have this concept and some caution people about thinking they can just throw 'truths' at someone and the other person will simply get it. Stages, individual problems, individual learning styles and needs, etc.

But.....it seems like most vocal theists do not understand this.
They do not realize that not only are they making a claim about their own knowledge - which may or may not be correct even if the statement is. They are making implicit claims about what you need to hear, when you need to hear it and their abilities to discern this. OR that none of this matters. That simply stating truths should be enough.

So when the receiver gets all these implicit claims, and the 'truths' do not seem to work, they can blame themselves or they can question the understanding - at the very least - of the stater. If this happens enough, it does begin to reflect poorly on the religion itself.

I place this in the religion forum, partly as a tangent from Signal's thread on humility and claims about knowing God. But it can also be used as a criticism against anyone who thinks they know what you need to believe and do - and usually is weak on introspection, interpersonal intuition and skill AND philosophy of language.

I have come to learn that giving knowledge and doing ones best to explain that knowledge to another does not cause them to accept the truth. I understand now as a Christian that it is the Holy Spirit that moves people. But i still persist in giving knowledge, Why? Because people can remember that knowledge when they come to accept the truth. So the knowledge is a seed planted into another person, sometimes it will remain dormant for a long time before the rain and warmth cause it to germinate and grow.

Oh, And having confidence in what one believes is a good thing when it truly is the way to eternal salvation and is exactly what the other person needs.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
So is the rant a statement then ?
A criticism ? Theists spout lots of stuff . The walking dead really get me roaring . Then again I like blood drinking flesh eating Vampire Zombie stories . There fun for scarring little kids . You can even make em believe they are little bastard sinners . That is a real knee slapper. More fun than a thick leather belt making welts
I'm pretty sure you did not respond here to anything I said. Yes, there was some criticism of many theists in my post. The primary focus was this idea of speaking to someone's condition, as opposed to stating truths, whether they fit the context person or not. I think many people, both theists and non-theists alike, think that saying with is true is good communication and blame the receivers if it does not 'work'. I think this is a very naive view of communication.
 
I have come to learn that giving knowledge and doing ones best to explain that knowledge to another does not cause them to accept the truth. I understand now as a Christian that it is the Holy Spirit that moves people. But i still persist in giving knowledge, Why? Because people can remember that knowledge when they come to accept the truth. So the knowledge is a seed planted into another person, sometimes it will remain dormant for a long time before the rain and warmth cause it to germinate and grow.

Oh, And having confidence in what one believes is a good thing when it truly is the way to eternal salvation and is exactly what the other person needs.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
And how do you relate this to the idea of speaking to someone's condition. IOW you focus, in your response, on the sharing of knowledge. Which sound like you tell people what you think is true. Is this affected by the specific listener reader? Does it matter if it is? Is it possible that while you are saying and writing things you believe are true, you may not be speaking to their condition, and thus the communication is ultimately false and useless?
 
And how do you relate this to the idea of speaking to someone's condition. IOW you focus, in your response, on the sharing of knowledge. Which sound like you tell people what you think is true. Is this affected by the specific listener reader? Does it matter if it is? Is it possible that while you are saying and writing things you believe are true, you may not be speaking to their condition, and thus the communication is ultimately false and useless?

The communications falseness or truth has absolutely nothing to do with the receiver’s condition.

But the receivers current condition can block them from understanding the message. But just because a receiver has a condition that makes them unable to receive the message does not mean they are forever cursed with this condition. People often change during their lives. Many people experience dramatic mind changing events in their lives that can break the hold their former mindset had over them. So a message they rejected as foolishness when they where 17 will sometimes become convincing by the time they reach 30. So one gives the message they believe to the receiver firstly in the hope they will accept it in their current state but also in the hope that they will be changed by a life experience in the future that will open them up to accepting the message in the future.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
The communications falseness or truth has absolutely nothing to do with the receiver’s condition.

But the receivers current condition can block them from understanding the message. But just because a receiver has a condition that makes them unable to receive the message does not mean they are forever cursed with this condition. People often change during their lives. Many people experience dramatic mind changing events in their lives that can break the hold their former mindset had over them. So a message they rejected as foolishness when they where 17 will sometimes become convincing by the time they reach 30. So one gives the message they believe to the receiver firstly in the hope they will accept it in their current state but also in the hope that they will be changed by a life experience in the future that will open them up to accepting the message in the future.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
It seems from reading the above that I can conclude that if you say true things to someone, any negative or impotent results are the fault of the listener.
 
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