Hand Guns - Yes or No

[happypervert]

Guns should be legal Worldwide

I think Guns should be legal Worldwide.
One should be allowed to own a Gun provided they pass a phsycological evalutation test & have no criminal convictions for violence or weapon related crimes.
One should also be allowed to use deadly force if one is truly in fear for thier life. For instance if you are about to be assualted by multiple or armed attackers. If someone breaks into your house or property.
Then one should in my opinion be allowed to defend oneself with deadly force.
But all the politically correct so called give the criminal rights to kill innocent People have rights.
So if you use deadly force against a scumbag prepare yourself for a long stay in jail. Unless you are lucky enough to live in Texas where they have the right idea towards dealing with criminals & yes I agree with the death penalty.

 

[phlogistician]

Oh, so a member of the UK disinformation pool. UK gun murders are lower tha US gun crime, but there is a slight kink in UK numbers, two actually. First UK gun crime has been rising, while US has been lowering.

Talk about disinformation. What causes are you attributing to these changes? Gun crime might be rising in the UK, you might hear stats like 35% bandied about, that equates to an extra 12 murders P.A. or something! It's just a blip, and I posted a graph before showing 'blips' in USA gun crime, asking for causes, and no definite cause has been proven. So the trends in crime are not the issue, but their volume.

Second UK does not count it as a gun crime untill there is a conviction, meanwhile US counts everything. Not to mention your over all violent crime is skyrocketing.

That is just not true, I posted alink that shows that a coroner will count a case as murder without a conviction, please read all the information in a thread before re-iterating a falsehood!

Oh and before you believe any more UK bullshit, weapons enter countries illegally all the time, in huge crates. A few criminals are reactivating guns form police lock up, and few criminals are buying the parts to convetr 7mm blank weapons to real combat capable pieces, but in all reality the vast majority of guns you see in criminal hands are smaggled in from other countries.

Just not true, 5% of guns used in crimes in the UK were converted 'Brocock' Air Cartidge Air Pistols! If guns were so easily available in 'large crates' why do something as dangerous as convert an airpistol? Also, recently two gangs have been busted that supplied arms to crooks, one activated 8mm blank firing Beretta pistols, and another decativated Mac-10's bought from the USA. One of the MAC-10's was used in a murder in Birmingham. If 'large crates' of weapond were arriving on UK soil, we'd expect to see AK-47's from Bosnia, and other European conflicts, and H&K G3's as they are in service and used in various European conflicts. Gun crime is rare in the UK, and it's fairly hard to get a gun. Nothing you can say will change the fact that people are shot so often in the USA because of easy access to firearms, and this is why your murder rate is so high.

 

[phlogistician]

Considering the assault weapons ban only really applies to rifles, and since handguns are the weapon of choice used in most crimes, I'd say the AWB has nothing to do with the drop in crime.

- N

So you are saying it's down to the Brady Bill then? ;-)

 

[phlogistician]

Without guns in the hands of private citizens, we'd have no Constitution to read, would we? And we'd be subjects of the Queeen of England. Hmm?

Baron Max

And where did that revolution get you? It was a spat over paying tax, and doing what you are told by a government, and yet you still pay tax, and still do what you're told at gunpoint by armed Police!

You lost freedoom there, but being fond of revisionism, paint it like you gained something.

 

[phlogistician]

I recently read an article where an ex-wife ran down her ex-husband with her car because he had a new girlfriend. This makes her a criminal, so what should we do to take these cars out of criminals' hands?

Was she a criminal before she committed this act? Seems you are getting things mixed up anyway. I'm not trying to prevent law abidng citizens from owning anything, and acknowledge that the law abiding could use such an item for wrong. What I am saying is that your current system does not have enough checks in it to prevent criminals from getting guns.

Anyway, to go back to your case, this woman was caught and I presume she and the vehicle were both licensed. Doesn't this show that these things help solve crimes?

 

[Starduster3]

I think what he means is, if I am not mistaken is if everyone carried guns that we would or could possibly end up back in the days of the old west where if you were carrying a gun then you most likely would or could end up in a gun fight. It would put everyone in a very vulnerable position. I personally don't carry a hand gun, but I do have a 410 shotgun and an 1876 44-40 Winchester rifle. Both for home defence. I don't know if I am right about the old west thing, but I would be willing to be that the gunfights would not happen everyday at first, but it would become more and more frequent as time went on if "everyone" carried handguns. I do agree that everyone should be properly trained and licenced in the handling of any firearm, but there are people out there, although upstanding citizens do not have any business even handling someone else's gun, let alone owning one. Do you not agree?

 

[RenegadeSith]

There isn't much difference between an AK-47 and a regular sporting rifle, considering both are semi-automatic. The sporting rifle is actually more dangerous since it's more accurate. Why use an illegal inaccurate semi-automatic rifle that's banned by how it looks in a crime when you can use a more accurate legal one?

I must disagree with you here... I legally own a semi-automatic AK-47 (they are not banned anymore) and it is very accurate. I regularly shoot 2" groups at 100 yards and have taken two deer with this rifle. The AK-47 is the most widely used military weapon in the world for good reason - that reason is NOT because it is inaccurate.

What I am saying is that your current system does not have enough checks in it to prevent criminals from getting guns.

Criminals steal guns that are used in crimes, just the same as they steal cars.

Anyway, to go back to your case, this woman was caught and I presume she and the vehicle were both licensed. Doesn't this show that these things help solve crimes?

They help solve a crime that is committed by the average citizen that snaps in a domestic dispute, yes... but a criminal with a stolen gun will get away.

The only thing that your mandatory licensing and registration does is tighten the grip of the government around my neck, while the criminals continue to steal guns to do their crime.

Have you ever been to the DMV in the U.S.? That place has their hands around all of our necks. I've had to jump through SO many hoops dealing with them, another controlling agency such as this is not needed here.

It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees!


Visit Renegade's BS

 

[phlogistician]

I must disagree with you here... I legally own a semi-automatic AK-47 (they are not banned anymore) and it is very accurate. I regularly shoot 2" groups at 100 yards and have taken two deer with this rifle.

You need eight frikking mags to take out Deer? Sorry, but you have just earned your place in the 'paranoid hall of fame' with that picture.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

phlogistician, I use some of the same military weapons that RenegadeSith uses in hunting, and no you don't use 8 mag. to kill a deer, if you would notice he has a short mag. that is used for hunting, the military weapons make excellent hunting weapons because they are designed to operate under the worse conditions of weather and environment, plus the fact is that they are as accurate or even more accurate then civilian weapons. The fact is that all hunting weapons are developed from military weapons, and all the great hunting rounds were military caliber first.

 

[Baron Max]

Sorry, but you have just earned your place in the 'paranoid hall of fame' with that picture.

What's really interesting here in this thread, Phlog, is that YOU are the one who seems overly paranoid. I mean, let's face it, you're fuckin' Brit, yet you're the one who seems so scared and paranoid that you're trying to tell Americans not to kill each other. Hell, if 452,362 Americans were gunned down by private gun owners tomorrow, it wouldn't affect you in the least ...if you didn't hear about it on the news, you'd never know it happened!

And you call any of us "paranoid"???

Baron Max

 

[SoLiDUS]

Let's keep things in perspective Baron: he just wants us dullards to live a certain way, because in his infinite wisdom, knows better than we do. This is eerily similar to Canadian Liberal attitude... and it's fucking disgusting. Always trying to shove their preferences down our throats despite the "solutions" being completely useless towards solving the root problems. Law-abiding firearm owners are not the problem, criminals are: stop wasting money on pointless registration systems and fund the police so they can deal with criminals appropriately.

 

[Baron Max]

Law-abiding firearm owners are not the problem, criminals are: stop wasting money on pointless registration systems and fund the police so they can deal with criminals appropriately.

Yeah, I agree.

It would also be nice to give a few rights back to the victims instead so damned many rights for the criminals!

Baron Max

 

[sderenzi]

See James ifft I contribute, otherwise what would you call this thread I began that's one of the longest here :-Z~

PS I luV everybody! Let's go out!!

 

[TW Scott]

Talk about disinformation. What causes are you attributing to these changes? Gun crime might be rising in the UK, you might hear stats like 35% bandied about, that equates to an extra 12 murders P.A. or something! It's just a blip, and I posted a graph before showing 'blips' in USA gun crime, asking for causes, and no definite cause has been proven. So the trends in crime are not the issue, but their volume.

Hey, a 35% increase in just your murder rates, not counting manslaughter, assualt, rape, burgularly, and other crimes, during a time when you economy has improved marginally, there has been no budget cut to the police, and generally the same environment as before should alert you that it is your gun ban.

That is just not true, I posted alink that shows that a coroner will count a case as murder without a conviction, please read all the information in a thread before re-iterating a falsehood!

It is counted as a murder for the legal system but is NOT reported for statistical analysis. It is not reported by your government to any information gather bureau until there is a conviction. This is no falsehood, just your chickenshit coward government lying to the world.

Just not true, 5% of guns used in crimes in the UK were converted 'Brocock' Air Cartidge Air Pistols! If guns were so easily available in 'large crates' why do something as dangerous as convert an airpistol? Also, recently two gangs have been busted that supplied arms to crooks, one activated 8mm blank firing Beretta pistols, and another decativated Mac-10's bought from the USA. One of the MAC-10's was used in a murder in Birmingham. If 'large crates' of weapond were arriving on UK soil, we'd expect to see AK-47's from Bosnia, and other European conflicts, and H&K G3's as they are in service and used in various European conflicts. Gun crime is rare in the UK, and it's fairly hard to get a gun. Nothing you can say will change the fact that people are shot so often in the USA because of easy access to firearms, and this is why your murder rate is so high.

I knew you were a moron. people convert airpistols and blankfirerers, for the same reason they sell oregano as weed. To make quick money off people marginally smarter than you. Sure the stupid idiots who get cuaght are going to use reactivated weapons. meanwhile the smart ones that the police actually work for are in the back streets. One day you might see them, for your sake pray they don't see you. As for our gun murder rate per capita, it is a not that far from yours and while ours is falling yours is rising.

Oh and please post more lies and fabrications to try to appease your government. I find them amusing.

 

[Neildo]

Considering the assault weapons ban only really applies to rifles, and since handguns are the weapon of choice used in most crimes, I'd say the AWB has nothing to do with the drop in crime. - N

So you are saying it's down to the Brady Bill then? ;-) - Phlog

Sorry, I forgot to mention that. Yes, the Brady Bill does help, however, it's just one of many numerous gun laws that have been passed over the years. Even before that bill, numerous other laws were passed as well. Nothing ever comes down to just one thing.

I must disagree with you here... I legally own a semi-automatic AK-47 (they are not banned anymore) and it is very accurate. I regularly shoot 2" groups at 100 yards and have taken two deer with this rifle. The AK-47 is the most widely used military weapon in the world for good reason - that reason is NOT because it is inaccurate.

I didn't say it's inaccurate, I said it's inaccurate compared to many other rifles one can purchase more easily than an AK-47. The only use an AK-47 has is being fully automatic and looking "evil", but since we're stuck with semi-automatic, there's far better rifles one can use. And yes, they're still banned in states such as California that still follow the silly cosmetic AWB guidelines. I'd love to get my hands on a Bulgarian AK, but I don't wanna have to build it thanks to stupid import laws.

AKs are the most popular because they're so highly produced and the so-called evil Soviets armed all the countries that still use em; the poor countries. But yes, they are nicely durable. 1st rate militaries don't use AKs as their main rifle, only poorer countries since they're so easily obtainable and are the best they're able to afford. You're able to shoot 2" MOA groups with an AK-47 because yours is probably modded, or at least you have skill on your side; the average AK-47 shoots around 3-5" MOA groups. I know people that can shoot sub 1" groups with a friggin' Mini 14, but of course they modded the heck out of it and is far from the norm, heh.

You need eight frikking mags to take out Deer?

First off, those mags are probably just for show, especially since he has so many nice 30 round mags grandfathered in so it adds to the eye candy.

I'm not a hunter, but many places have a limitation on what you can hunt with. Heck, some places have a max of like 4 rounds per mag compared to his lucky ownership of 30 rounders. Someone else correct me tho as I can't remember the exact hunting limitations.

- N

 

[TW Scott]

Actually AK's are so popular becuase A: They are as accurate as any off the shelf rifle you can buy for the same money B: Are heavy enough to mitigate the recoil of the round used. C. Mass produced in such numbers that you can get a hundred for 5000 dollars in Brazil. and D. One of the most reliable tnad tough weapons ever. They are harder than hell to jam and will fire under 99% of the nastiest conditions you are likely to meet hunting.

 

[phlogistician]

What's really interesting here in this thread, Phlog, is that YOU are the one who seems overly paranoid. I mean, let's face it, you're fuckin' Brit, yet you're the one who seems so scared and paranoid that you're trying to tell Americans not to kill each other.
Baron Max

Max again you seem to have forgotten things I've stated on this thread. This debate is academic for me, as it doesn't affect me. I'm not paranoid about anything therefore, it's just a debate.

And what is wrong with telling people not to kill each other? you think I should encourage that activity? ;-) You really are a piece of work Max!

 

[phlogistician]

if you would notice he has a short mag. that is used for hunting,

The one in the middle at the front? Looks like a standard 30 banana to me, just appears short because it's standing on it's end and we're looking down it's length, ...

the military weapons make excellent hunting weapons because they are designed to operate under the worse conditions of weather and environment, plus the fact is that they are as accurate or even more accurate then civilian weapons. The fact is that all hunting weapons are developed from military weapons, and all the great hunting rounds were military caliber first.

I'm not disputing that, I was questioning why he needed 8 magazines. Seen 'Red Dawn' one time too many perhaps?

 

[John99]

I use some of the same military weapons that RenegadeSith uses in hunting, and no you don't use 8 mag. to kill a deer, if you would notice he has a short mag. that is used for hunting,

Why, all you really need is one bullet. They mostly just stand there dont they?

and when you point the gun at them i guess they think ...look at this nice creature... maybe he has an apple for me.

 

[phlogistician]

Hey, a 35% increase in just your murder rates, not counting manslaughter, assualt, rape, burgularly, and other crimes, during a time when you economy has improved marginally, there has been no budget cut to the police, and generally the same environment as before should alert you that it is your gun ban.

Bullshit! Only 250,000 people out of a population of about 57,000,000 were licensed to own handguns before added restrictions were made. People can still shoot long barrelled pistols, rifles, and shotguns, there has been no 'ban'. We were never allowed to carry guns for self defense, only transport them to or from a shooting or hunting location, and during which time, they had to be unloaded, and secured in a case, so to assert that our crime is rising because of chnage in firearms legislation show how little grasp of the subject you actually have!

Our rates or murder are a quarter of yours. Our incidence of rape one thirteenth! We might have a higher rate of burglary, but I can live with that, if we don't suffer the same personal assault rate you do. Most UK burlgaries happen mid afternoon when people are out at work, so owning a gun wouldn't do a damned thing, apart from give it to a criminal perhaps, although UK law requires firearms and ammuntion to be locked in separate compartments in a gun safe, so not easily stolen.

It is counted as a murder for the legal system but is NOT reported for statistical analysis. It is not reported by your government to any information gather bureau until there is a conviction. This is no falsehood, just your chickenshit coward government lying to the world.

Got a source for that? I cited a source which states the contrary.

I knew you were a moron. people convert airpistols and blankfirerers, for the same reason they sell oregano as weed. To make quick money off people marginally smarter than you. Sure the stupid idiots who get cuaght are going to use reactivated weapons. meanwhile the smart ones that the police actually work for are in the back streets. One day you might see them, for your sake pray they don't see you. As for our gun murder rate per capita, it is a not that far from yours and while ours is falling yours is rising.

Well the 'smart ones' don't seem to be using their weapons much, as the weapons that are killing people are re-activated or converted on the whole. These are in circulation because real guns are fairly hard to aquire. You don't seem to grasp this, why would anyone choose to put themselves in danger with an unsafe conversion if they could get a real gun?

Oh and please post more lies and fabrications to try to appease your government. I find them amusing.

I don't need to. You have a huge problem with gun homicides, and you are trying to excuse it. You can say what you want, cast aspersions on other governments, but nothing you say diminshes that body count.