Gravity slows down time.

[paddoboy]

[Sigh.] I think I posted this before, but I'm not certain. It is slightly off track, but simple enough, so why not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System

The reason, again as alluded to by others, is that the earth makes for a very poor clock, so for a system that doesn't care about the earth's motion, there is no reason to bother making such adjustments.

Well, chinglu has answered I see........and just as expected, and just as predicted by myself, we get the same answer as we have for 760 posts and 38 pages...........
Arfa brane summed him up quite adequatley if somewhat brutally.


His history labels him as a 100% anti SR/GR troll that ignores all evidence and just parrots the same old same old.
The "bending over backwards " to appear to give him a fair go has been to no avail.
Where do we go from here????
You guessed it!! Same old same old from pseudoscience's top troll.

 

[Lakon]

The only definition I can give for clock and time interval is based on GPS.

Again, Chinglu, what about before GPS ? Was time measurement non existent before GPS ? I don't think so.

How did your predecesors measure time ? As far back as the ancient Chinese ?

Circa 100 BC they used water clocks - clepsydras - but as they got frozen in winter, a 'five wheel sandglass clock' was created by Zhan Xiyuan during the early Ming Dynasty. Research your history a little. How does that fit in with your 'only definition for clock and time' ? Hmmm ?

It seems quite incredible to me that you are unable to get past this most fundemental level, and makes me wonder what these 700 odd posts have been all about.

 

[Undefined]

Well, chinglu has answered I see........and just as expected, and just as predicted by myself, we get the same answer as we have for 760 posts and 38 pages...........
Arfa brane summed him up quite adequatley if somewhat brutally.


His history labels him as a 100% anti SR/GR troll that ignores all evidence and just parrots the same old same old.
The "bending over backwards " to appear to give him a fair go has been to no avail.
Where do we go from here????
You guessed it!! Same old same old from pseudoscience's top troll.

Not yet, mate! The end game in this discussion is under way.

I and others have answered his latest reply, so chinglu is now inevitably coming to a stage where he must logically agree with our counter-points and admit he has no physical reason for believing (and misunderstanding) his external/philosophical 'take' so far on such scenarios based on internal/physical determinants and processes.

The end is in sight, and I feel it only remains for Lakon to pursue his excellently to-the-point line of ever-constraining questions to chinglu and see what results from chinglu. That result will tell which way this OP/discussion has effectively been concluded, and then we may all make (graciously, it is hoped) our final statements on it and then let it go (again, it is hoped) without any lingering rancor or hard feelings in any party to this discussion.

So please, padoboy, let's just allow more time for Lakon to elicit chinglu's final answer/statement to Lakon's 'end game' questions.

The end game will soon complete if you give it time. Patience, paddoboy. Thanks, mate!

 

[paddoboy]

The end game will soon complete if you give it time. Patience, paddoboy. Thanks, mate!

Are you a betting man??

 

[Undefined]

Are you a betting man??

No. I learned early that to gamble is to give over control to someone/something other than to yourself. Same with 'religion', that just gives over to 'unspecified' control of mind and body. No thanks, in either case, mate!

Anyhow, I always like to be patient and wait and see what unfolds 'naturally' rather than 'force' (and hence likely 'bias') through impatient 'untimely intervention'. Let's wait and see, hey? Patience, 'young feller'!

 

[chinglu]

So you have completely dodged the simple question / confirmation request in RW's post 728, which was basically, what do clocks do ?

You've jumped many steps ahead and gone off into your disputed GPS, SR/GR twins, etc, fairyland.

I note you have DODGED the question.

Another question, you said, above;

The only definition I can give for clock and time interval is based on GPS

So what was your definition PRIOR to the invention of GPS ?

No, you are wrong. I answered the question directly.

You folks think time is some fuzzy concept no grounded in reality. Yet, in GPS, all clocks sync to the earth's motion as best as possible. Even the second as defined in international standards tries to closely connect the definition to the earth's motion. The problem is we have days and years. And, the earth's rotation after 365 days is not exactly 1 earth orbit.

In any event, we base our concept of time to the earth's motion like I said.

Otherwise, if you think I an evading, let's see you folks connect your definition of second to nothing in the real external world other than say some frequency.

Then prove that definition is not tied to the earth's motion.

 

[Lakon]

Not yet, mate! The end game in this discussion is under way.

I and others have answered his latest reply, so chinglu is now inevitably coming to a stage where he must logically agree with our counter-points and admit he has no physical reason for believing (and misunderstanding) his external/philosophical 'take' so far on such scenarios based on internal/physical determinants and processes.

The end is in sight, and I feel it only remains for Lakon to pursue his excellently to-the-point line of ever-constraining questions to chinglu and see what results from chinglu. That result will tell which way this OP/discussion has effectively been concluded, and then we may all make (graciously, it is hoped) our final statements on it and then let it go (again, it is hoped) without any lingering rancor or hard feelings in any party to this discussion.

So please, padoboy, let's just allow more time for Lakon to elicit chinglu's final answer/statement to Lakon's 'end game' questions.

The end game will soon complete if you give it time. Patience, paddoboy. Thanks, mate!

Hi Undefined;

1) There is no 'end game'. This is a discussion forum. It is not up to me or you to decide when it ends, or whether it goes on, or whatever.

2) It is neither my intention to 'end it' or continue it.

3) My earlier post above, merely went to the fact that so much energy has been expended in the arguing, when in fact, Chinglu doesn't seem to be able to get past the first, most basic step. I see this as rather comical.

4) Please stop infering that my posts, or what I have to say, is in any way dependent on, conditional on, or regardful in any way whatsoever of the other poster you mentioned. I do not in any way take into account his posts - he is on complete ignore.

Also, I see that Chinglu has posted on another thread, but not this one yet, so that says something, although, give it time .. he might get his act together !

 

[chinglu]

Again, Chinglu, what about before GPS ? Was time measurement non existent before GPS ? I don't think so.

How did your predecesors measure time ? As far back as the ancient Chinese ?

Circa 100 BC they used water clocks - clepsydras - but as they got frozen in winter, a 'five wheel sandglass clock' was created by Zhan Xiyuan during the early Ming Dynasty. Research your history a little. How does that fit in with your 'only definition for clock and time' ? Hmmm ?

It seems quite incredible to me that you are unable to get past this most fundemental level, and makes me wonder what these 700 odd posts have been all about.

These posts are me explaining to others the meaning of time to humans.

What did you think when humans used sundials to measure time they were not measuring the earth's motion?

Now, if you can come up with some valid time not tied in any way to the earth's motion, do that to p;rove your case.

I have already demonstrated in all ways, time form humans is tied to the earth's motion with GPS being the latest model.

 

[paddoboy]

Please stop infering that my posts, or what I have to say, is in any way dependent on, conditional on, or regardful in any way whatsoever of the other poster you mentioned. I do not in any way take into account his posts - he is on complete ignore.

!

Please try and grow up and stop being the prized fool and village Idiot.
Being exposed for what you are, way back a few pages, is not something to risk your sanity over.
Exposure of the truth [and your part in it] was bound to be revealed, if not by me, then someone else.

 

[Lakon]

I have already demonstrated in all ways, time form humans is tied to the earth's motion with GPS being the latest model.

You have nswered my question about 'how was time measure prior GPS'. I'm not sure I agree with your answer, but I'll keep it in abeyance.

You will of course, go and answer RW's posts #759 and #760, won't you ?

 

[paddoboy]

I have already demonstrated in all ways, time form humans is tied to the earth's motion with GPS being the latest model.

The only way any clock is tied to the earth's motion is by Human adjustments and synchronising.
A clock is not connected by any cable, fibre optics or in any other magical way.
Once synchronised it beats independantly of the Earth's motions, and is only affected by gravity and hence time dilation....

 

[chinglu]

[Sigh.] I think I posted this before, but I'm not certain. It is slightly off track, but simple enough, so why not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System

The reason, again as alluded to by others, is that the earth makes for a very poor clock, so for a system that doesn't care about the earth's motion, there is no reason to bother making such adjustments.

You have no idea what you are talking about. The choice was made to define seconds of the earth's rotation rather than the orbit causing leap seconds to occur.

Just as leap years keep our calendar approxi-mately synchronized with the Earth’s orbit about the Sun, leap seconds keep precise clocks in synchronization with the rotating Earth, the traditional “clock” that humans have used to determine time. Coordinated Universal Time (UTC), created by adjusting International Atomic Time (TAI) by the appropriate number of leap seconds, is the uniform time scale that is the basis of most civil timekeeping in the world. The concept of a leap second was introduced to ensure that UTC would not differ by more than 0.9 second from UT1, the time determined by the rotation of the Earth — a choice made pri marily to meet the requirements for celestial navigation.
http://iraf.noao.edu/~seaman/leap/GPS-Nov99_Innov.pdf

Therefore, the purpose of GPS clocks is to match the earth's rotation to perfection. So, you are wrong.

 

[chinglu]

The only way any clock is tied to the earth's motion is by Human adjustments and synchronising.
A clock is not connected by any cable, fibre optics or in any other magical way.
Once synchronised it beats independantly of the Earth's motions, and is only affected by gravity and hence time dilation....

We are not in dispute that frequency based clocks become less accurate in changing gravity, but that does not imply the earth is in a different positions for different observers holding these clocks. They still live the same number of earth rotations and earth orbits. Hence, they have lived the same amount of time.

 

[paddoboy]

We are not in dispute that frequency based clocks become less accurate in changing gravity, but that does not imply the earth is in a different positions for different observers holding these clocks. They still live the same number of earth rotations and earth orbits. Hence, they have lived the same amount of time.

Only one person here implies the earth is in two different positions...that is you.
Again since the first page, you chose to ignore FoRs.

You agree gravity affects time???
That's nice....and that is why time dilation occurs.
One twin sees the Earth make one complete revolution in 24 hrs [the stay at home twin]
The other twin sees the Earth make one complete revolution in 12 hrs because of gravitational time dilation....

Thanks chinglu...You have seen the light!
To back track from here will surely show you up as a troll.

 

[Lakon]

Chinglu, I DO NOT want to interfere with your conversation with RW, and note that while you answered his post 760, you did not answer his post 759.

I am interested to see your response to that specific post - 759 - please.

Also, thank you for your most recent reply to me. I have another question. You say that time (pre or post GPS) is defined by earths rotation.

Question: what if you were an inhabitant of, say the planet Saturn. Would time then be defined by Saturns rotation ? And what if you communicated with me on earth ? Whose difinition would be extant ?

Thanks, and again, I DO NOT want to interfere in your conversation with RW.

 

[paddoboy]

Y
Therefore, the purpose of GPS clocks is to match the earth's rotation to perfection. So, you are wrong.

CORRECT!!!!!!!!!!
But take that GPS clock away from Earth, say to just near the Sun, and then bring it back to Earth, and you will notice its time has slowed.
IT HAS UNGONE GRAVITATIONAL TIME DILATION.

 

[chinglu]

Chinglu, I DO NOT want to interfere with your conversation with RW, and note that while you answered his post 760, you did not answer his post 759.

I am interested to see your response to that specific post - 759 - please.

Also, thank you for your most recent reply to me. I have another question. You say that time (pre or post GPS) is defined by earths rotation.

Question: what if you were an inhabitant of, say the planet Saturn. Would time then be defined by Saturns rotation ? And what if you communicated with me on earth ? Whose difinition would be extant ?

Thanks, and again, I DO NOT want to interfere in your conversation with RW.

Yes, perhaps if one lived on Saturn, you might use those rotations, why not? And, I did give the correct answer. My question is why you and others do not think so. Perhaps you folks should define what you all mean by time since I have done that precisely. So, this is not about me, it is about bout you all.

Now, using only astronomical observations I can convert between the 2 times. So, this is not relative but absolute.

You see, what is up and down? What is north and south? One chooses some time standard such as the earth's motion to define time. Of course, Einstein claimed time varies based on motion and gravity, but that only means that clock deviated from the defined standard. Both observers stills agree on the earth's position, hence they must also agree upon the standard time definition. We have no choice but to conclude if clocks deviate from the standard, they did not live different times, some clock is wrong compared to the standard that all parties agree upon..

 

[chinglu]

CORRECT!!!!!!!!!!
But take that GPS clock away from Earth, say to just near the Sun, and then bring it back to Earth, and you will notice its time has slowed.
IT HAS UNGONE GRAVITATIONAL TIME DILATION.

Who cares if the time changed.

Both agree on the position of the earth and that is a clock standard.

See, all you folks want to say both twins lived 12 earth orbits but one only lived 10 earth orbits by the traveling twin's clock.

This is a contradiction.

One cannot live 2 different earth orbits.

 

[paddoboy]

Who cares if the time changed.

Both agree on the position of the earth and that is a clock standard.

See, all you folks want to say both twins lived 12 earth orbits but one only lived 10 earth orbits by the traveling twin's clock.

This is a contradiction.

One cannot live 2 different earth orbits.

Only in your befuddled brain.

Again, for the umpteenth time, why don't you take this idea of yours and get it peer reviewed?
I mean we all here don't know what we are talking about.
So get it peer reviewed...and insist that all science, all physics and our everyday lives must now change because of your momentious discovery.

Go on chinglu, go make a difference to the world!

 

[Undefined]

Paddo. At this sensitive juncture, the 'end game' is manifest in the side-discussion between chinglu and Russ Watters, as is being increasingly narrowed and clarified (and effectively 'mediated') by Lakon's pertinent questioning.

Please leave it alone for a while until the three parties involved have come to some final common understanding that overcomes the obvious cross-purpose perils so far involved. Patience! Thanks, mate.