Gravitational waves from black hole merger

hansda said:
It is believed that, nothing can escape a black hole. So, no non-zero mass can escape a black hole.
Gravitational Wave is carrying some energy. Certain loss of mass is happening here from a black hole. How this can be explained?
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This is a loss of energy not of the black holes themself, but of the whole two-body system. This energy of the gravitational field you have already in the Newtonian theory, even if you have two point masses with fixed mass. In the Newtonian theory, this energy would not radiate away in a two-body system, because you have an exact stable solution - Keplerian ellipses - there, but no gravitational waves. But even in these ellipses you get higher velocities (higher kinetic energy) if the two bodies are closer to each other.
 
Interesting. Many of you and also this grand experiment now seem to be saying that the largest impulse of gravity wave oscillation / emission is at the very end of the merger. I agree. Why is that, exactly?
 
origin said:
Are you kidding me? Do you think this experiment was done by some dudes in their mom's garage. Seriously, are you really that out of touch that you think you are coming up with shit they didn't think of?

How can you possibly think the gods absurd statement, "You can't possibly get two suns at light-micro-seconds apart, leave aside getting two BHs of around 30 Solar masses so close" is real skeptism? You seem to be becoming a first rate crank!

Well then, how could they get that close, hmm lets see, how about they were that close the instant before combining; after spiralling into each other for millions of years! There is no need to lose it in your golden years!
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Not at all. But you'd be surprised how often the wrong compromises are made in real life engineering. The Concorde's tires and the Shuttle's many problems with ceramic tiles and Morton Thiokol's gaskets, and Perkin-Elmer's fiasco with the first Hubble optics are all something that shows just how easy it is to mess up when the pressure is on and the stakes are high.
 
hansda said:
The merged entity is also a Black Hole. It is no longer a two-body system after its merger.
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Correct. But most of the gravitational energy radiating away comes from the period where they have yet been a two-body system. This is what has been seen by LIGO - the oscillations during this last time before the merger.
 
danshawen said:
Interesting. Many of you and also this grand experiment now seem to be saying that the largest impulse of gravity wave oscillation / emission is at the very end of the merger. I agree. Why is that, exactly?
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If they are far away, the Newtonian approximation is better because the gravitational fields are weaker. But in the Newtonian theory itself, the Keplerian orbits are completely stable. The GR effects become more powerful in stronger gravitational fields. That's why it was the Mercury whose orbit was most distorted by GR effects so that the error of Newtonian theory was seen there first.
 
danshawen said:
Interesting. Many of you and also this grand experiment now seem to be saying that the largest impulse of gravity wave oscillation / emission is at the very end of the merger. I agree. Why is that, exactly?
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Because before the merger you had two ultramassive objects moving at relativistic speeds approaching each other more and more closely. That generates a lot of gravitational modulation. After the merger you had none; it was a static black hole. That discontinuity is what was so noticeable. In addition, the strongest signal came when the two were going at the maximum speed relative to each other - i.e. right before collision.
 
Schmelzer said:
Correct. But most of the gravitational energy radiating away comes from the period where they have yet been a two-body system. This is what has been seen by LIGO - the oscillations during this last time before the merger.
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If a mass falls into a Black Hole, it is absorbed completely. Instead of the mass, if a Black Hole falls into another Black Hole, how only some mass can be lost? Is there any ratio for this mass loss ?
 
billvon said:
Because before the merger you had two ultramassive objects moving at relativistic speeds approaching each other more and more closely. That generates a lot of gravitational modulation. After the merger you had none; it was a static black hole. That discontinuity is what was so noticeable. In addition, the strongest signal came when the two were going at the maximum speed relative to each other - i.e. right before collision.
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When two masses collide, it is broken into pieces if some mass is lost from the original bodies. How in this case, there is no broken piece of mass if some mass is being lost from the original bodies?
 
hansda said:
When two masses collide, it is broken into pieces if some mass is lost from the original bodies.
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Right - that's normal masses. Black holes do not "break into pieces."
How in this case, there is no broken piece of mass if some mass is being lost from the original bodies?
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Mass is only being lost through radiation.
 
hansda said:
What is the ratio, for this mass being lost?
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Depends on a great many things. In black holes that size, Hawking radiation is minimal as a percentage of total mass. I don't know how much mass is lost as a result of gravitational radiation.
 
billvon said:
Depends on a great many things. In black holes that size, Hawking radiation is minimal as a percentage of total mass. I don't know how much mass is lost as a result of gravitational radiation.
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Are "Hawking Radiation" and "Gravitational Radiation" different?
 
hansda said:
If a mass falls into a Black Hole, it is absorbed completely. Instead of the mass, if a Black Hole falls into another Black Hole, how only some mass can be lost? Is there any ratio for this mass loss ?
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There is a lot of radiation from infalling matter. There is no fixed ratio for this, if, say, something neutral would fall directly into the black hole there would be no such radiation, but the usual way to fall inside is much longer. Usually matter rotates a lot of time around the BH in some accretion disc, similar to the ring of Saturn.

But all this is the long way from far away toward the BH horizon. Nothing special, in principle this is similar for matter falling into the Sun or on Earth. The role of the atmosphere of the Earth, which transforms the invisible meteorites into fireballs before they reach the surface can be played by this accretion disc.

And, the more close to the horizon, gravitational waves become more and more important for the loss of energy.
 
The God said:
Nothing but continued childish adhoms....
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Where? In relation to your credentials? OK, then what are your credentials? Certainly I have the right to ask that, as you seem to be alleging that this whole magnificent effort in detecting gravitational waves is fraudulent. You said it also about GP-B.
And of course you also have the right to refuse to answer my questions and ignore them if you wish, but then naturally that conjures up images of you being fraudulent yourself, and not wanting to reveal your total inexperience and lay person status.
That's nothing to be ashamed of.If you were more up front about your claims and accusations, by answering all criticisms of your claims by myself and others, it wouldn't be so bad. But you ignore the overwhelming evidence supporting mainstream cosmology and fabricate and conjure up some supposed anomaly that in near all cases with your general opposition to all things mainstream, does not hold water, and inevitably is shown to be wrong.

Perhaps it irks you that those excited by cosmology are singing the praises of this great discovery so loud?
Perhaps its because this discovery has also validated further the existence of BH's?

If that is the case, I would suggest then that any problems lay within yourself, and only yourself can handle that and/or modify your apparent fervent unethical behaviour to legitimate science.
All the best with that.
 
Edont Knoff said:
The only interesting point is what makes them spiral closer ... and, whoops, it's also the emission of gravity waves that causes the loss of energy (which reduces their orbits). The waves were there a long time, but only the strongest right at the merger could be detected - that's also where the mentioned "chirp" comes from, the orbits became insanely fast at that point, before it was a very low frequency, raising slowly as the black holes spiralled in.
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Bingo also!
 
danshawen said:
I like skepticism (REAL skepticism, like yours) a lot. Gullibility is the characteristic most unbecoming of a scientist or an engineer. Check those calculations twice, three, or as many times as it takes to be certain that your conclusions are correct, or that your designs are safe and effective, with as many confounding factors taken into account as possible.

It looks like LIGO has done that, but if only magnetometers were used to rule out the effects of lightning strikes, that probably isn't sufficient.
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Your final paragraph is correct and as obvious as dog balls.
Critical analysis sure! That's what science is all about...Genuine critical analysis that is! But what if that critical analysis is actually driven by some agenda, or some medical condition like delusions of grandeur?
What if that person although being unqualified, sees himself as some sort of expert due to such delusions of grandeur? What if that person is driven by a religious agenda to try and deride and refute science whenever possible, due to the fact that the same science has driven any need for any deity into near oblivion? What if that person has had his attempts at maths shown to be in total disarray in the past? What if that person has had his fabricated interpretations as to the data received by our cosmologists, totally refuted and shown to be in error?
Where does your so called critical analysis stand then?Critical analysis and criticism just for the sake of it? :)

My dear Dan, do you really believe that anyone [including yourself and I] is really going to invalidate these findings from a science forum, open to all? :)
What access to LIGO, Swift, or any of the other myriad of ground based and space based state of the art scientific equipment do you or any of these posters with their critical analysis have?


There have been quite a few papers posted that show how all contingencies were catered for with this superb discovery. Yet they are summarily ignored by these so called "on line" critics. So tell me Dan, how is that "sensible critical analysis" that you seem to be praising others for?
Perhaps it was embarrassing for you to have to admit you were wrong and accept these findings. Cudos though for at least doing that.
But perhaps others are more affected, or driven by a religious agenda, or suffering from a far more serious bout of delusions of grandeur then you do.
The point is, and as you have recognised, these findings are magnificent and will probably be awarded this year's Nobel.
The critical analysis are not. At least certainly not in this case.
And please don't give me a "like" on this as I think you really have shown how you are absolutely abusing this system just as at least one other nut was doing.
 
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