Gravitational waves from black hole merger

[paddoboy]

Lets get to the brasstracks...

You can't possibly get two suns at light-micro-seconds apart, leave aside getting two BHs of around 30 Solar masses so close.

Please note that a BH of 30 Solar mass, would call for a very huge original star, and you do not find two or more such huge starts in close vicinity, even otherwise whichever forms first would not let the other guy form, it will eat it up before it becomes the BH. So what could be possible is two BHs strayed closer by the funny twist of nature....

Not really funny....Most systems are binary, trinary or even larger.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/astro/blkbin.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_system


And even if one or both remnants were Neutron stars, they can in time turn into BH's.
And of course the two BH's straying together is another possibility.
The point is it happened, and we have more 'chirps" yet to investigate or in the process of investigation.
Wonderful news all round!

 

[paddoboy]

So what could be possible is two BHs strayed closer by the funny twist of nature....

Here's another my friend!
http://astronomynow.com/2015/04/22/binary-black-holes-found-verging-on-merging/

Twin black holes, so close that they are gravitationally bound and orbiting around one another in the final stages before they merge to form one colossal black hole, have been found in a quasar that existed around 10.3 billion years ago.

“We believe we have observed two supermassive black holes in closer proximity than ever before,” says Suvi Gezari of the University of Maryland, USA, who participated in the study of these rare black holes.

The two black holes share the same material falling onto them, and so they swallow matter in cyclical episodes, leading to periodic brightening and fading. Quasars are known to change in brightness as their activity varies from one day to the next, but these variations are usually random. Using the Pan-STARRS1 Medium-Deep Survey, a team of astronomers including Gezari spotted that a quasar, designated PSO J334.2028+01.4075, had a periodic cycle of brightening and dimming instead, repeating this cycle every 542 days. The astronomers quickly realised that what they were looking at was not one active black hole, but two very close together, making one orbit of each other over this 542 day period. If they were in our Solar System, that would put them within the orbit of Mars. Follow up observations with the Catalina Real Time Transient Survey and the FIRST Bright Quasar Survey confirmed the finding.

 

[The God]

Here's another my friend!
http://astronomynow.com/2015/04/22/binary-black-holes-found-verging-on-merging/

Twin black holes, so close that they are gravitationally bound and orbiting around one another in the final stages before they merge to form one colossal black hole, have been found in a quasar that existed around 10.3 billion years ago.

“We believe we have observed two supermassive black holes in closer proximity than ever before,” says Suvi Gezari of the University of Maryland, USA, who participated in the study of these rare black holes.

The two black holes share the same material falling onto them, and so they swallow matter in cyclical episodes, leading to periodic brightening and fading. Quasars are known to change in brightness as their activity varies from one day to the next, but these variations are usually random. Using the Pan-STARRS1 Medium-Deep Survey, a team of astronomers including Gezari spotted that a quasar, designated PSO J334.2028+01.4075, had a periodic cycle of brightening and dimming instead, repeating this cycle every 542 days. The astronomers quickly realised that what they were looking at was not one active black hole, but two very close together, making one orbit of each other over this 542 day period. If they were in our Solar System, that would put them within the orbit of Mars. Follow up observations with the Catalina Real Time Transient Survey and the FIRST Bright Quasar Survey confirmed the finding.

Maths can give wonderful solutions.....especially when we talk of multi body systems..

We failed in our assessment of G2 motion around our own BH just 25000 lys away, and we are talking of confirming something 1000000000 lys away...thats maths, take it with a pinch of salt if you don't have high BP.

 

[paddoboy]

Maths can give wonderful solutions.....especially when we talk of multi body systems..

We failed in our assessment of G2 motion around our own BH just 25000 lys away, and we are talking of confirming something 1000000000 lys away...thats maths, take it with a pinch of salt if you don't have high BP.

You fail to realize that your own limitations with regards to maths [as previously noted] and your problem with interpreting cosmology and data, is far in arrears to that of our professional experts.
Nothing wrong with that though.
Still, a great start to a great New year with such superb discoveries despite your inability to comprehend it properly.

 

[The God]

You fail to realize that your own limitations with regards to maths [as previously noted] and your problem with interpreting cosmology and data, is far in arrears to that of our professional experts.
Nothing wrong with that though.
Still, a great start to a great New year with such superb discoveries despite your inability to comprehend it properly.

Nothing but continued childish adhoms....

 

[danshawen]

Lets get to the brasstracks...

You can't possibly get two suns at light-micro-seconds apart, leave aside getting two BHs of around 30 Solar masses so close.

Please note that a BH of 30 Solar mass, would call for a very huge original star, and you do not find two or more such huge starts in close vicinity, even otherwise whichever forms first would not let the other guy form, it will eat it up before it becomes the BH. So what could be possible is two BHs strayed closer by the funny twist of nature....

I like skepticism (REAL skepticism, like yours) a lot. Gullibility is the characteristic most unbecoming of a scientist or an engineer. Check those calculations twice, three, or as many times as it takes to be certain that your conclusions are correct, or that your designs are safe and effective, with as many confounding factors taken into account as possible.

It looks like LIGO has done that, but if only magnetometers were used to rule out the effects of lightning strikes, that probably isn't sufficient.

No off-the-shelf power supply I know of can completely eliminate power line transients that are transferred to the load. Not to the lasers. Not to the detectors. When the stated sensitivity is 1/1000 the diameter of a proton, this is going to be an issue. The upgrade sounded promising, but if this thing is supposedly recording gravity waves all the time (and the researchers are reporting that they are), where are all of those signals (not just the one they are reporting) really coming from? If the merging of black holes is happening as frequently as this experiment suggests, it is no wonder the universe we see is not a much brighter place. The light is being swallowed as quickly as it ignites. Maybe the end point of the universe is inside billions of black holes. Where is your G-d of Ptolemy and "Let there be light" now?

Brass tacks are great.

 

[Schmelzer]

You can't possibly get two suns at light-micro-seconds apart, leave aside getting two BHs of around 30 Solar masses so close.
Please note that a BH of 30 Solar mass, would call for a very huge original star, and you do not find two or more such huge starts in close vicinity, even otherwise whichever forms first would not let the other guy form, it will eat it up before it becomes the BH. So what could be possible is two BHs strayed closer by the funny twist of nature....

That's why my idea that the two black holes have been created together, by the same collapse of a supermassive star. If this star was, say, part of a double star system, the star itself would have some asymmetry. The collapse is a process where all the mass falls very fast into the center - and if there is an asymmetry, there may appear not one center but two, corresponding to the two tidal peaks of the collapsing star. Once the double star system rotates, the resulting pair of BHs will rotate too. And the two BHs are by construction very close to each other. They may be of similar order (like the height of the tide on the same side as the moon and the other side) but not exactly the same size (because there is, nonetheless, some asymmetry - the other star is only on one side). So, 29 and 36 would be plausible values.

 

[Edont Knoff]

Due to it's brief nature, the energy was the equivalent of converting the mass of 3 Suns into energy.

This a lot of energy. I've been surprised to see such a high mass-to-energy conversion rate in the collision event. (Our sun will only convert a fraction of it's mass to energy, and it does so over roughly 10 billions years, if estimations are right).

What sort of process is converting the mass in the collision?

Further question: Are there two singularities behind the event horizon of the newly formed combined black hole or only one?

 

[origin]

I like skepticism (REAL skepticism, like yours) a lot. Gullibility is the characteristic most unbecoming of a scientist or an engineer. Check those calculations twice, three, or as many times as it takes to be certain that your conclusions are correct, or that your designs are safe and effective, with as many confounding factors taken into account as possible.

It looks like LIGO has done that, but if only magnetometers were used to rule out the effects of lightning strikes, that probably isn't sufficient.

No off-the-shelf power supply I know of can completely eliminate power line transients that are transferred to the load. Not to the lasers. Not to the detectors. When the stated sensitivity is 1/1000 the diameter of a proton, this is going to be an issue. The upgrade sounded promising, but if this thing is supposedly recording gravity waves all the time (and the researchers are reporting that they are), where are all of those signals (not just the one they are reporting) really coming from? If the merging of black holes is happening as frequently as this experiment suggests, it is no wonder the universe we see is not a much brighter place. The light is being swallowed as quickly as it ignites. Maybe the end point of the universe is inside billions of black holes. Where is your G-d of Ptolemy and "Let there be light" now?

Are you kidding me? Do you think this experiment was done by some dudes in their mom's garage. Seriously, are you really that out of touch that you think you are coming up with shit they didn't think of?

How can you possibly think the gods absurd statement, "You can't possibly get two suns at light-micro-seconds apart, leave aside getting two BHs of around 30 Solar masses so close" is real skeptism? You seem to be becoming a first rate crank!

Well then, how could they get that close, hmm lets see, how about they were that close the instant before combining; after spiralling into each other for millions of years! There is no need to lose it in your golden years!

 

[Edont Knoff]

The only interesting point is what makes them spiral closer ... and, whoops, it's also the emission of gravity waves that causes the loss of energy (which reduces their orbits). The waves were there a long time, but only the strongest right at the merger could be detected - that's also where the mentioned "chirp" comes from, the orbits became insanely fast at that point, before it was a very low frequency, raising slowly as the black holes spiralled in.

 

[origin]

The only interesting point is what makes them spiral closer ... and, whoops, it's also the emission of gravity waves that causes the loss of energy (which reduces their orbits). The waves were there a long time, but only the strongest right at the merger could be detected - that's also where the mentioned "chirp" comes from, the orbits became insanely fast at that point, before it was a very low frequency, raising slowly as the black holes spiralled in.

 

[Schmelzer]

Well then, how could they get that close, hmm lets see, how about they were that close the instant before combining; after spiralling into each other for millions of years! There is no need to lose it in your golden years!

The problem is that "spiralling into each other" needs a lot of time. The Earth is spiralling into the Sun how long now, without an end in sight? So the question how they come so close to each other is a reasonable one.

 

[The God]

Are you kidding me? Do you think this experiment was done by some dudes in their mom's garage. Seriously, are you really that out of touch that you think you are coming up with shit they didn't think of?

How can you possibly think the gods absurd statement, "You can't possibly get two suns at light-micro-seconds apart, leave aside getting two BHs of around 30 Solar masses so close" is real skeptism? You seem to be becoming a first rate crank!

Well then, how could they get that close, hmm lets see, how about they were that close the instant before combining; after spiralling into each other for millions of years! There is no need to lose it in your golden years!

You missed the point, the original poster who raised the issue of light-micro-second was referring to some kind of stable binary structure and subsequent merging......now if you feel two BHs of around 30 solar mass can be in a stable orbit few light-micro seconds apart, then what can I say..

 

[hansda]

It is believed that, nothing can escape a black hole. So, no non-zero mass can escape a black hole.

Gravitational Wave is carrying some energy. Certain loss of mass is happening here from a black hole. How this can be explained?

 

[Edont Knoff]

Look at this:

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015...nd-spiraling-in-at-seven-percent-light-speed/

When reading this thze most striking point was the speed: 7% of light speed for million sun mass bodies. That is an insanse momentum that has built up there.

 

[The God]

This a lot of energy. I've been surprised to see such a high mass-to-energy conversion rate in the collision event. (Our sun will only convert a fraction of it's mass to energy, and it does so over roughly 10 billions years, if estimations are right).

What sort of process is converting the mass in the collision?

Further question: Are there two singularities behind the event horizon of the newly formed combined black hole or only one?

An event horizon is defined with a single singularity only, the reference is to non charged non spinning BH only. Your point stems from merging of two singulairties, so could a single event horizon have two singularities, I don't think so.

 

[Edont Knoff]

It is believed that, nothing can escape a black hole.

Google for "Hawking radiation" - black holes might not be totally black.

And gravity waves are not a substance or a ray trying to escape a black hole. They are bent time-space. That works differently. But I'm also not quite clear how ... gravity and bent time-space are the same thing. A "ripple" like the mentioned waves can run through bent space, without being stopped, my naive idea says, since it's just a higher frequency phenomenon of the same type.

 

[The God]

It is believed that, nothing can escape a black hole. So, no non-zero mass can escape a black hole.

Gravitational Wave is carrying some energy. Certain loss of mass is happening here from a black hole. How this can be explained?

Theory permits this, no mass/em radiation escapes from inside the EH, but curvature of spacetime (gravity) extends till infinity...

 

[hansda]

Google for "Hawking radiation" - black holes might not be totally black.

"Hawking radiation" is only a mathematical/theoretical prediction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation . This is not Physically verified.

In September 2010, a signal that is closely related to black hole Hawking radiation (see analog gravity) was claimed to have been observed in a laboratory experiment involving optical light pulses. However, the results remain unverified and debatable.[4][5] Other projects have been launched to look for this radiation within the framework of analog gravity. In June 2008, NASA launched the Fermi space telescope, which is searching for the terminal gamma-ray flashes expected from evaporating primordial black holes. In the event that speculative large extra dimension theories are correct, CERN'sLarge Hadron Collider may be able to create micro black holes and observe their evaporation.[6][7][8][9]

And gravity waves are not a substance or a ray trying to escape a black hole. They are bent time-space. That works differently. But I'm also not quite clear how ... gravity and bent time-space are the same thing. A "ripple" like the mentioned waves can run through bent space, without being stopped, my naive idea says, since it's just a higher frequency phenomenon of the same type.

What is "time-space" ? Is it same as "space-time" ? We have also seen that "space-time" is a mathematical model and not the physical reality.

 

[hansda]

Theory permits this, no mass/em radiation escapes from inside the EH, but curvature of spacetime (gravity) extends till infinity...

If no mass escapes from inside the EH; how mass is being lost here?