Government-subsidised health care

Asguard

Kiss my dark side
Valued Senior Member
PB is a fan of a thing called "Post secret", anyway she told me one last night which just left me disgusted. There are lots on there about people being abused, one in paticular about a girls father abusing her with a broom handle but even they pale in comparison for me to this one.

I worked 80 hours a week to pay for chemo because I believed that I would have the rest of my life with her. The chemo failed, leukaemia took my daughter. What I wouldn't give to have those 40 hours a week back with her

Even writing this makes me cry but more, it makes me angry. I turned to PB and said "that was the from the US wasn't it?"

Only in the US would this happen, in the civilised world the chemo would be paid for by the government. I don't know which I feel worse about. the father who wasted his life to pay for the chemo or the little girl who didn't have her father around because of the selfish, evil attitudes of a sickening and depraved country
 
PB is a fan of a thing called "Post secret", anyway she told me one last night which just left me disgusted. There are lots on there about people being abused, one in paticular about a girls father abusing her with a broom handle but even they pale in comparison for me to this one.



Even writing this makes me cry but more, it makes me angry. I turned to PB and said "that was the from the US wasn't it?"

Only in the US would this happen, in the civilised world the chemo would be paid for by the government. I don't know which I feel worse about. the father who wasted his life to pay for the chemo or the little girl who didn't have her father around because of the selfish, evil attitudes of a sickening and depraved country
Don't count on free medical treatment. A lot of countries have to draw the line as to what diseases they are willing to fund treatment for.:)
 
PB is a fan of a thing called "Post secret", anyway she told me one last night which just left me disgusted. There are lots on there about people being abused, one in paticular about a girls father abusing her with a broom handle but even they pale in comparison for me to this one.



Even writing this makes me cry but more, it makes me angry. I turned to PB and said "that was the from the US wasn't it?"

Only in the US would this happen, in the civilised world the chemo would be paid for by the government. I don't know which I feel worse about. the father who wasted his life to pay for the chemo or the little girl who didn't have her father around because of the selfish, evil attitudes of a sickening and depraved country

Yes, it is sadly ironic that much of North America has an excess of commodities yet a shortage of essentials. A considerable percentage of the population lives below the poverty line which is shameful for these nations which are so rich in resources and technology.

It may be the land of opportunity yet the wealth is not evenly divided and people do whatever they can to mitigate misfortune when it strikes, as in the poignant example you post here. :(
 
Don't count on free medical treatment. A lot of countries have to draw the line as to what diseases they are willing to fund treatment for.:)

I want to know could any of you who are proud that free health care failed, that scream about socialisium.

Could any of you look this father in the eyes?

I'm not talking about whether this girl would have lived or died, I HOPE your fucked up system didn't mean that she didn't get treatment till to late and she could have been saved. If that's the case every one of you deserves to rot in hell if it existed. I'm talking about the fact that the father should have been by her bed side no matter what.

A friend of mine is currently going through this with his father, he has terminal cancer, it was simply to aggressive to be treated and chemo failed. He chose to take himself off chemo because he didn't want to spend 3 weeks out of every month sick for a the chance of a couple of extra months. His son is home with him, he is paid a careers allowance by the government so he can be home helping his father.

Instead of this father being there to comfort and help his daughter he was slaving away to make money for someone who probably has millions of his own so he can put in his new pool. He shouldn't have been working 80 hours a week, he shouldn't have been working PERIOD.

Once again I wonder if any of you would have the courage to look this man in the eye and justify voting against Universal health care
 
Perhaps some internet blowhards are against universal health care, but I believe polls on the matter show a majority of us are for it.

But it was never put to a referendum, Asguard.
Our "representatives" kindly decided that, unlike themselves, we should not have government healthcare.:mad:

Around here, barbecues and coin jars at cash registers to pay for medical treatment for uninsured people who have something catastrophic is kind of normal...

..The only reason the hospital treated my brother's uninsured fiancee is that she would have died otherwise...she had a mostly benign tumor, but it weighed about 30 pounds...

...My mom's friend died because she had no job and could not afford type 2 diabetes treatment...

...Getting surgery for my sinus disease was such an oddysey I was hoping it would get into my brain cavity so that someone would have to treat me.

You can scream at us, but we're not in charge.
 
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Who changed the title of this and why? its about a lot more than "Subsidised" health care, firstly its about FREE health care but secondly its about the lack of carers payments which would have enabled him to be home with his daughter and not at work at all. The fact that whoever changed the title to "Government-subsidised health care" just shows that they don't understand the point I was making at all
 
My country pays for Chemo, radiation, surgery, doctor appointments. I think you have to pay for ambulance rides, but they bill you later.

Canada. We love thee!

I cannot imagine a jar raising funds for someone needing a medical procedure.

I feel bad that Obama inherited such a mess as he probably won't get a second term and he graduated in the top 10% of his class at Harvard. His dreams of Universal Health Care for Americans will probably die as well.
 
I cannot imagine a jar raising funds for someone needing a medical procedure.
I've seen it to help pay for a child's chemotherapy and for someone injured in a catastrophic car wreck who needed rehab in the past couple of years.

We do have indigent care in my county...but a lot of the surrounding ones do not...too, if you're not poor, but merely run out of insurance, well, sucks to be you!
 
I've seen it to help pay for a child's chemotherapy and for someone injured in a catastrophic car wreck who needed rehab in the past couple of years.

We do have indigent care in my county...but a lot of the surrounding ones do not...too, if you're not poor, but merely run out of insurance, well, sucks to be you!

we have jars too, but not for patients, they collect for the vollenteer workers in the hospitals

From flinders hospital's website

Volunteers contribute in many areas of the hospital including:

working in the gift shop, coffee shop, tea bar and café bar
providing amenities and newspaper trolleys, library and magazine service to the wards, clinics and waiting areas
working in a playroom for children of patients with appointments in the consulting clinics
caring for all flowers in the wards and delivering floral arrangements to patients
offering diversional therapy, providing a visiting sitter service to patients when no other support is available
supporting designated clinics and providing volunteers to ensure the visit to a clinic will be as comfortable as possible
volunteer guide service which benefits patients and visitors by reducing stress usually associated with unfamiliar surroundings
providing some specialised supportive services to patients and their families in the following areas – Emergency Department, Intensive and Critical Care Unit, High Dependency, Oncology, Paediatrics, Neonatal, Mental Health, Postnatal, Endoscopy, Medical Imaging, Dialysis, Cancer Clinic and other areas where individual support is required
offering work experience and international students an opportunity to gain experience in volunteering and being in a work situation

http://www.flinders.sa.gov.au/volunteers/pages/ourwork/

It also contributes to research, clinical services are provided by state governments and funded by the state and federal governments and carers payments

for instance at a quick glance i found these three

carer payment

carer allowance- supplemental payment

Child Disability Assistance Payment

And that's just the Centerlink payments. State departments of youth and family services (or equivalent) also provided support.

Even McDonald's of all things provides support in the form of housing near each of the children's hospitals for family members who need to stay close to their sick children and who live outside the cities where they are located. State governments also provide this sort of accommodation
 
Even McDonald's of all things provides support in the form of housing near each of the children's hospitals for family members who need to stay close to their sick children and who live outside the cities where they are located. State governments also provide this sort of accommodation

Hard to believe something like the Ronald McDonald houses came from the selfish, evil attitudes of a sickening and depraved country
 
Hard to believe something like the Ronald McDonald houses came from the selfish, evil attitudes of a sickening and depraved country

You mean the fact that they are almost signal handedly responsible for the obesity epidemic in children and are trying to deflect that by providing housing at children's hospitals?

I ask you directly adoucette, could YOU look this father in the eyes and justfiy voting against universal health care? voting AGAINST supporting him so he could be beside his daughter?

Could you have looked the daughter in the eyes and explained to her why YOU were preventing her daddy being there with her when she is scared, alone and dying?
 
You mean the fact that they are almost signal handedly responsible for the obesity epidemic in children and are trying to deflect that by providing housing at children's hospitals?

Really?
Where did you come up with McDonalds being single handedly responsible for the obesity epidemic?
By the way, I don't think Children make their own food choices, for instance in Australia do children take themselves to McDonalds and buy their own food?

I ask you directly adoucette, could YOU look this father in the eyes and justfiy voting against universal health care? voting AGAINST supporting him so he could be beside his daughter?

Our Insurance nor our UHC provides that so not really an issue.

Could you have looked the daughter in the eyes and explained to her why YOU were preventing her daddy being there with her when she is scared, alone and dying?

Nothing in our system prevents him from being there.
 
Why the distraction? Oh, right ....

Adoucette said:

Really?
Children take themselves to McDonalds and buy their own food?

Gee, Arthur, you don't think you're nitpicking the rhetorical with a chainsaw of inanity, there?
 
Gee, Arthur, you don't think you're nitpicking the rhetorical with a chainsaw of inanity, there?

Not at all since I don't think that McDonalds is almost singlehandedly responsible for childhood obesity.

Do you?

Or do you likewise totally ignore the issue of taking personal responsibility for one's actions?
 
You mean the fact that they are almost signal handedly responsible for the obesity epidemic in children

That's both totally unsupported and unbelievable on its face.

and are trying to deflect that by providing housing at children's hospitals?

Ronald McDonald House - and McDonald's itself, for that matter - predate the recent explosion in childhood obesity. If McDonald's is "single handedly" creating childhood obesity, then we should see childhood obesity rates tightly correlate with the proliferation and sales volume of McDonald's restaurants. Can you establish such a correlation?

Moreover, if we take the less-ludicrous line that fast food in general is responsible for childhood obesity, we see that McDonald's is probably the least objectionable case. What other fast food chain is more responsive to public pressure, does more for charity, and has tried harder to offer healthy options (which inevitably don't sell well - in fact, customers instead flock to McDonald's competitors who respond by offering even larger, less-healthy options. Witness the depravity of, for example, the Carl's Junior menu in the wake of the Super Size Me fallout).

The question of what the causes for childhood obesity are is still an open one. But most of the stuff I've seen suggests that it has a lot to do with the recent prevalence of high-fructose-corn-syrup-laden foods and drinks in schools. There is some research showing that if you eliminate sodas, juices and other HFC-sweetened snacks from schools, childhood obesity drops off by like 50% relatively quickly. So probably this should trace back to Nixon's "War on Hunger," which is when much of the current prominence (and subsidy) of HFC really got up and running.

I ask you directly adoucette, could YOU look this father in the eyes and justfiy voting against universal health care? voting AGAINST supporting him so he could be beside his daughter?

Could you have looked the daughter in the eyes and explained to her why YOU were preventing her daddy being there with her when she is scared, alone and dying?

Frankly, I think that you're nearing the point of abusing what is basically a tragedy to push a political line. And since you don't seem to understand much about the politics in question, this is starting to get offensive. How about some actual analysis of programs that could address issues like this, with data about their costs and advantages? I do not think that you're going to get any more mileage out of browbeating people with a purely emotional appeal.
 
Nothing in our system prevents him from being there.

Having to work 80 hours a week doesn't prevent him being by her bed side 24 hours a day???

What planet are you living on??

80 a week plus 2 hours a day in travel time (just as an aprox, I would think more than 1/2 each way is normal but lets say it is 1/2 hour) is 94 hours, then you have to add in 8 hours a day for sleep which is 56 which adds up to 150 hours a week. A week consists of 168 hours, so that is 18 hours a week or 2.5 hours per day and that's assuming he lives next door to the hospital and around the corner from his work. Out of that time he also needs to wash, possibly care for other children, eat, clean his clothes for work, travel to the hospital and everything else he needs to do.

Now tell me your system doesn't prevent him from being there to care for his DYING DAUGHTER.
 
When subtlety is anathema

Adoucette said:

Not at all since I don't think that McDonalds is almost singlehandedly responsible for childhood obesity.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "singlehandedly", but I get his point.

Are you always so curmudgeonly about your literalism?

Or is it possible that you might look to both the people (i.e., parents) and the marketplace? That is, we can certainly acknowledge that consumers make some problematic choices, but as long as that is the end of it, we will never achieve any real progress.

Marketplace examples:

• Consumers have a choice between mobile phones, telecom carriers, and skipping the whole notion altogether.

—Effective participation in society often demands that people have some sort of mobile communication device.​

• Okay, so I don't like the Droid information tracking system; I think it's sinister. So I'll get an iPhone. But wait. Apple's notorious info-tracking is already on the record. What about other mobile platforms?

If the whole of the marketplace includes information tracking that consumers disdain, then what is the alternative? To opt out, and be demonstratively less effective?​

• • •​

• Many people like to eat food that has been prepared for them. Indeed, the restaurant sector of the service market is a tremendous economic influence in the United States; eliminating it (as a theoretical proposition) could bring disastrous results.

—Well, okay. McDonald's is really unhealthy. Well, in truth, Wendy's is only marginally less so. But I can afford to go someplace better. Maybe one of those restaurants like Chili's, which includes "appetizers" that exceed a nutritionist's recommended caloric intake and more sodium than a person ought to receive in a day.

—As a similar proposition—and, indeed, noting that there are bland, unpopular alternatives—what are the implications if consumers suddenly cut out McDonald's, Pizza Hut, Chili's, Red Robin, Spaghetti Factory, or even the delicious but often no less unhealthy small businesses like Seattle's Icon and Amore? I mean, the best steak in town is The Met, with El Gaucho running close behind. But come on, I can make a steak and potatoes dinner that is considerably less unhealthy than those.​

We see this over and over again. Have you ever heard the figurative lament, "Five hundred channels, and nothing's on"?

All I'm getting at is that you need to reconsider your bizarre sense of literalism, and look beyond the most absolutely superficial interpretations of rhetoric. While I am an advocate of the principle that it is the responsibility of the broadcaster to transmit information in a manner that will be understood by the audience, there really is no point if the audience refuses communication.

In the case of my daughter, I'm kind of lucky. Sure, she likes McDonald's once in a while, but given her druthers, she would rather I spend three times as much for dinner at The Rock. And while she certainly likes fettuccine alfredo at The Old Spaghetti Factory, she likes mine better.

Meanwhile, on the subject of McDonald's—and, certainly, there are other factors involved—it's worth noting that while I fell out of my exercise habit at the local gym, I didn't start putting on weight (including Thanksgiving dinner, regular pizza & beer nights at the local pub, or even at a chain restaurant) until I ate a McDonald's burger. And yes, I'm already aware that this is a regular phenomenon. No, I haven't done the hard science to establish it as a valid and reliable outcome, but in general terms of everyday life, I don't expect everyone to become biochemists or nutritionists in order to figure out their optimal diet any more than I expect people to get M.D.s to second-guess their prescription regimen, or Psy.D.s in order to be happy. Not everyone should have to be an IT experts to use the web without various firms peeking in on their every keystroke. Imagine the implications for voting ....

And, hey, voting is another case of the perils of a free market. You know, the whole Douche and Turd proposition?

To be certain, there is a relationship between consumer expectations and marketplace availability, but there also comes a point when consumer expectations are shaped by marketplace availability.

Not all of the information people needed was readily available to them when consumers helped shape the marketplace. That's why massive, unhealthy portions at restaurants are so popular. To the other, I never ate lentil soup in my lifetime until I was in England last year. And, no, bacon and lentil soup with a pint of ale is not the healthiest supper on the planet, but for pub food, it sure as hell beats deep fried cheese. Nor would anyone have ever predicted that I would choose a salad of toasted goat-cheese over radicchio and red kale with raspberry mustard dressing, but not only was the "starter" at 1331 in York enough to count as a meal for me, but it was certainly a healthier bet than lamb shank with butter-glazed carrots and rich gravy, or a bacon cheeseburger with chips.

To the other, I'm of age to eat and drink in pubs. Even looking upscale—i.e., a nine-dollar salad with goat cheese and fourteen different greens that is actually worth the money—it is hard to find places to take my daughter that aren't grotesquely unhealthy. I mean, sure, there are some vegan places in Seattle, but even my daughter is aware that, for cheese pizza, mac and cheese, or anything else Cafe Flora, to pick an example at random, offers her, just isn't all that good.

Beyond your strange pseudo-literalism, I would suggest that while consumers shape the marketplace, they only do so within certain parameters; that is, they shape the marketplace within the boundaries it sets itself. Yes, on some occasions, innovations overcome marketplace resistance to flourish and redefine those boundaries, but by and large, our increased childhood obesity phenomenon in this country is a marketplace outcome. It is a result of marketplace competition.

And there is, of course, a solution. People should just stop going to restaurants. After all, consumers could certainly force healthier fare and portions on the marketplace by doing so, but inevitably the market would creep back toward its unhealthy norm.

In the end, the question invoked by Asguard's rhetoric which you find so objectionable is much more subtle than your inanity permits.

And, besides, I would point to high fructose corn syrup as much as fast food. And what kills me most about the HFCS issue is that I actually prefer foods without it. I mean, sure, it sounds silly that I might specifically shop for a bottle of ketchup without HFCS. But once I found one, yeah, actually, I like it better than the usual stuff. Same thing, actually, with Pepsi. No, really. I picked up some Pepsi throwback, had a flashback to my childhood, and wondered why the hell people have been drinking the cola-swill dominating the market for the last twenty to thirty years.

It comes back to consumers, and what the legion taste tests suggested. But that's how the marketplace worked. Consumers chose between the available options, which were determined for the most part by the manufacturers. For years, "natural" sodas, or "Mexican" Coke, made with sugar instead of concentrated hypersugar, were more expensive. And we can knock consumers for being a thoughtless flock, but what is the alternative? How many of us should be mechanical engineers, so that no local garage can rip us off for car repairs? Or statisticians, so that we can best reduce our chances of accidental injury or death?

At some point, we have to look at the marketplace. After all, one of the eternal questions of capitalism is how to knock down the overhead while jacking up the market price.

The idea that the parents are responsible for their children's obesity is not anathema. But neither should consideration of the marketplace.

Leaping to the point of children taking themselves to McDonald's to buy their own food is just a cheap way to avoid the myriad subtle facets of reality.
 
firstly its about FREE health care ...
Firstly, this is illogical and doesn't make sense. There is NO such thing as "Free" healthcare. The government can not provide ANY service for "Free". It has to borrow the money from somewhere and use that money to "Pay" for the "Not Free" healthcare professionals.

In the case of Australia the healthcare system is going into the shitter. Almost all Australians you talk to will tell you, first up, buy private insurance the public hospitals suck, the wait is much longer, the "Free" care actually pretty shit.

Secondly, Australia is sitting on top of a mountain of resources, much like Saudi Arabia or Canada. If not for countries like Singapore, China, Japan, Germany and America working their arses off and going without then places like Australia would be even shittier than it already is. Ask youself: Where does the fMRI come from? The "Free" Australian healthcare system? No. It comes from the USA. Where does 99% of Australian medical treatments come from? Australia? No. From the USA, Japan and Europe.

Look at Japan, 20 years of economic slump following their great socialized society - this has destroyed two generations of Japanese. Look at Europe. Due to their flagrant socialized societies, with politicians promising "Free" everything to the ignorant masses (the "Government will take care of me), the entire continent is a turd circling the rim of the toilet. Look at England, to maintain the "Free, Free Free" the politicians promised everyone, all they had to do was sell their soul. English have had to gut their core society, import cheap labor from all their 'colonies' (who now want their free free free), then when that didn't work long they resorted to gutting their entire manufacturing sector and sold what's left of their souls to the "City" peddling cheap credit like drug pushers - Ah, but that's coming to an end.

Canada recently told the entire human species to f*ck off, they aren't interested in cutting carbon output. Why? Because Canadians want the illusion of "Free, Free, Free..." The truth is Canadian healthcare isn't "Free" it's going to cost a few South Pacific Island Nations (if global warming forecasts are to be believed". Canada has as much oil, if not more, than KSA. A promise of 2-4 degrees more warming.

As for Australia. They're going to use the "English" method. First destroy what's left of their culture (actually, there's not much left of it even now, it's like a mini-me version of the USA), they import most of their labor (1 in 4 citizens weren't born in AU), they're pro-BIG Australia. Even now they're cutting education, f*cking the next generation into a lifetime of debt, to pay for all the "FREE" goodies the politicians promised them. That's a fact. K-12 is going to get LESS then their grandparents. It's already written into the budget.

That's the hidden cost of your "Free" healthcare. And with Australians even fatter and lazier than your average Mississippi southerner, bloated, rotting with diabetes, you can kiss a generation or three into debt servitude as you sell of what's left of your national resources to the Chinese and Americans.

There's no Free anything.

There's no such thing as "Free". Medical Doctors do not work for "Free". At the very least you use governmental "Force" (aka violence) to restrict the amount a medical professional can charge for his or her services. That Free Australian healthcare comes with a prices - Violence.

Of course, most of what you just read makes little sense to you. Get back to your cud chewing.
 
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Firstly, this is illogical and doesn't make sense. There is NO such thing as "Free" healthcare. The government can not provide ANY service for "Free". It has to borrow the money from somewhere and use that money to "Pay" for the "Not Free" healthcare professionals.

In the case of Australia the healthcare system is going into the shitter. Almost all Australians you talk to will tell you, first up, buy private insurance the public hospitals suck, the wait is much longer, the "Free" care actually pretty shit.

...


Bull, when was the last time you were IN Australia

I was going to post anacdotal evidence but this is better

..."The sample had greater trust in private compared with public hospitals, but greater trust in public (Medicare) than private (health insurers) systems," she said...

http://ama.com.au/node/3369


And for hospitals

table 2 page 11

http://www.pc.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/62116/patientsatisfaction.pdf

2003
NSW 42 VIC 43 QLD 46 SA 61 WA 49 TAS 51 ACT 51 NT 46 AUST 46

And satisfaction with last visit to hospital
2003 public 61 private 69

As for my own last experience, I spent last weekend in 2 hospitals, the first was Flinders with PB. She had a miscarriage. She was in a bed in a private room in Flinders A&E with in 15 min and off to ultrasound after 2 hours (which was the time required for the blood tests to come back). That's while the A&E and the hospital itself is being rebuilt

The second was her sister who tried to commit suicide, she was brought to Lyell Mac by ambulance, was in a bed IMMEDIATELY, and by the time we arrived 1 hour later (because we live the other side of town) everything had been done, blood tests, 12 Lead ECG, constant monitoring, visit from mental health, the only thing left to be done was for her to be monitored for 10 hours and for the mental health nurse to do a psych consult with the psych registra as to whether it was ok for her to be discharged or whether she needed to be detained.

This is how "bad" the public hospital system is. In fact PB has been to FMC a few times (all B side) and every time treatment has been started with in 1/2 hour and that's one of the 2 busiest hospitals in the state

How many Americans even WITH private health care would be treated as efficiently
 
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