God Must Exist;

[Jan Ardena]

If our whole life, and perception are based on relationships.
God must exist.

For something NOT to exist fully, it cannot be percieved by the mind, or exist
in the memory.

Hi, just want to see what you philosophical headz think to this;

1. To believe God does not exist, or, that there is not enough evidence for his existence, still forms a relationship, at least in the mind, because God has to be percieved to not to exist.

2. That perception differs ONLY, from the perception of God does exist, in
the negative sense, as opposed to a positive one.

3. The only way God can NOT exist is to illiminate all notions of God, Supreme Being, Leader, boss, from the mind.
By doing so one relinquishes the relationship.

4. This is not a theistic argument, or a religious one.
It is more in the realm of an ontological one.

What do you think?

thanks
jan.

 

[Rhaedas]

The idea of God surely exists. But taking the next step and saying that because the idea is there makes it so, that's a leap.

 

[Dywyddyr]

For something NOT to exist fully, it cannot be percieved by the mind, or exist in the memory.

So unicorns, FSM and the teapot around Mars also exist?
What do you mean "perceived"? Conceived of? Or actually "sensed"?
If the latter please provide evidence that god is sensed by the mind.

1. To believe God does not exist, or, that there is not enough evidence for his existence, still forms a relationship, at least in the mind, because God has to be percieved to not to exist.

So how does not being "perceived" at all, to not have have come across the belief in god and therefore have no clue about god whatsoever, fit in?

3. The only way God can NOT exist is to illiminate all notions of God, Supreme Being, Leader, boss, from the mind.

This stands only if your first premise is true. (And leads me to think that you mean "conceived" rather than "perceived").
Which I doubt is the case.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

So unicorns, FSM and the teapot around Mars also exist?

They exist in that they form images in the mind which serve the purpose of
showing the non-existence of God.

What do you mean "perceived"? Conceived of? Or actually "sensed"?
If the latter please provide evidence that god is sensed by the mind.

Surely the mind does what it does.
It conjours up images of everything whether they exist physically or not. We
must then form some kind of a relationship with those images. The relationship we form with the image of God is no more or less real, than the images of our cars.

So how does not being "perceived" at all, to not have have come across the belief in god and therefore have no clue about god whatsoever, fit in?

How is it possible to ''not have a clue about God'' when your mind has already concieved of it? The notion of ''God does not exist'' is the secondary phase.

This stands only if your first premise is true. (And leads me to think that you mean "conceived" rather than "perceived").
Which I doubt is the case.

If I say ''God'', what directly occurs in your mind?

jan.

 

[spidergoat]

I grant that it is possible to have an illusory relationship with all manner of conceptions, even to feel physical perceptions as a result of that delusion.

 

[Jan Ardena]

The idea of God surely exists. But taking the next step and saying that because the idea is there makes it so, that's a leap.

The point is, we form a relationship with the idea, which becomes a perception. The question is; are relationships and perceptions real?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

I grant that it is possible to have an illusory relationship with all manner of conceptions, even to feel physical perceptions as a result of that delusion.

The idea of ''illusory'' is a choice we make after the relationship is forged.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

They exist in that they form images in the mind which serve the purpose of showing the non-existence of God.

Huh?

Surely the mind does what it does.
It conjours up images of everything whether they exist physically or not. We
must then form some kind of a relationship with those images. The relationship we form with the image of God is no more or less real, than the images of our cars.

More specifically: It conjours up images of everything whether they exist physically or not.

How is it possible to ''not have a clue about God'' when your mind has already concieved of it?

Incorrect. There are peoples that had no concept at all of god until they were introduced to the idea by outsiders.*

The notion of ''God does not exist'' is the secondary phase.

Not so.
"God" is a secondary phase - arising as an "explanation" for natural phenomena.

If I say ''God'', what directly occurs in your mind?

You're annoyed?

* I forget the name: maybe Spidergoat can provide a link.

 

[Rhaedas]

The point is, we form a relationship with the idea, which becomes a perception. The question is; are relationships and perceptions real?

jan.

To someone who believes they are real, they would seem to be. But the real commonly defined as actually existing to any observer, no.

 

[Bells]

The point is, we form a relationship with the idea, which becomes a perception. The question is; are relationships and perceptions real?

jan.

I could form a relationship based on my belief that I am married to Rupert.

But to do so would make me delusional because it is not real.

In other words, to say God must exist and to claim one has formed a relationship with God would be akin to my firmly believing that my husband is Rupert..

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

They exist in that they form images in the mind which serve the purpose of showing the non-existence of God.

Huh?

God still exists in the mind.
To the point where you make a decision as to whether or not he exists.
That you think he doesn't exist does not eliminate him, it merely describes him as non-existent.

More specifically: It conjours up images of everything whether they exist physically or not.

The ones we discard can be said to not exist as we don't assign anything to them, eventually they become dormant, non-essential, and for all intent and
purpose, forgotton. Hence we have gone some way to relinquishing our relationship with them.

Incorrect. There are peoples that had no concept at all of god until they were introduced to the idea by outsiders.*

You're proving what i'm saying.
The moment they became aware of God, he existed.

Not so.
"God" is secondary phase - arising as an "explanation" for natural phenomena.

Okay. Then a relationship has to be formed, in order to percieve the idea that God does not exist. But God still exists in the mind despite that.

You're annoyed?

* I forget the name: maybe Spidergoat can provide a link.

jan.

 

[Rhaedas]

God(s) exists in the mind. True enough.

 

[Dywyddyr]

God still exists in the mind.
To the point where you make a decision as to whether or not he exists.
That you think he doesn't exist does not eliminate him, it merely describes him as non-existent.

Which has nothing to so with the existence or otherwise of unicorns etc.

The ones we discard can be said to not exist as we don't assign anything to them, eventually they become dormant, non-essential, and for all intent and purpose, forgotton. Hence we have gone some way to relinquishing our relationship with them.

Which doesn't address my point.

You're proving what i'm saying.

How so?
They had no awareness of him before hand: therefore he didn't exist AT ALL in their minds. Therefore they had no belief in him. It's quite simple. They were, by definition, atheists, without having going through hearing about god to reject the idea.

Okay. Then a relationship has to be formed, in order to percieve the idea that God does not exist. But God still exists in the mind despite that.

Untrue: as shown above.

When someone is angry or frustrated a common comment is "God!". Usually followed by "Why don't you listen?" or some such.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Bells;2711833]I could form a relationship based on my belief that I am married to Rupert.

But to do so would make me delusional because it is not real.

In other words, to say God must exist and to claim one has formed a relationship with God would be akin to my firmly believing that my husband is Rupert..

That relationship which is formed in the mind, is no different to forming the
same type of relationship in your mind, with your husband.

What is the difference?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

To someone who believes they are real, they would seem to be. But the real commonly defined as actually existing to any observer, no.

Does the mind assign qualities like ''real or unreal'' before the image, perception, therefore relationship, has been firmly implanted?

jan.

 

[Bells]

That relationship which is formed in the mind, is no different to forming the same type of relationship in your mind, with your husband.

What is the difference?

jan.

The difference is that if I actually believed I was married to "Rupert", I would be delusional.. that relationship would be false or based on something entirely false.

 

[Dywyddyr]

That relationship which is formed in the mind, is no different to forming the same type of relationship in your mind, with your husband.
What is the difference?

It's quite simple:
One is an actual relationship with someone who really exists and who participates in that relationship.
The other is a figment of imagination and the relationship does not exist, nor does the person in question.
(Yes, in Bells' case Rupert does exist, but very probably not as he exists in her mind).

 

[Jan Ardena]

God(s) exists in the mind. True enough.

Therefore God exists, as much as anything else in the mind, despite
qualities we assign to it.

jan.

 

[DeeCee]

"If our whole life, and perception are based on relationships."

If?
Is that all you have, relationships.
Do you never enjoy taking a shit, eating a fine meal or watching a glorious sunset?
You have my sympathy if not my empathy.

"For something NOT to exist fully, it cannot be percieved by the mind, or exist in the memory"

In that case could you buy me a T-rex or introduce me to 7 of 9. You have her number dont you?

Answers..

1. I didn't invent god. I would never even have considered such a strange idea if weirdos like you hadn't suggested it to me. Do kids abandoned at birth and raised by wolves (it happens. check the literature) know about their relationship with god. I guess not, until some prick snares them, slaughters their pack mates and subjects them to a philosophical education.

2. See 1

3.unless he was never there in the first place. See 1

4.It's not any sort of argument. it's just theological masturbation. Me? I prefer 7 of 9. She exists because I wank about her. Don't you agree?

"What do you think?"

I think your wasting bandwidth and you've made me complicit.

Thanks for that.
Dee Cee

 

[Dywyddyr]

Therefore God exists, as much as anything else in the mind, despite qualities we assign to it.

Only for those that think he does.