God is evil or having limited power?

Status
Not open for further replies.

daktaklakpak

God is irrelevant!
Registered Senior Member
Let's look at the origin of the sin at the garden of Eden.

The existence of serpent is enough to prove God is either evil or having limited power. God is evil because he needs the snake to turn his boring life into something interesting. If not, then by unable to eliminate the snake at the first place, God had shown his limit.

God didn't stop Eve from eating the fruit also proves God is either evil or having limited power. He is evil because he knew it will happen and just let it happened. If you see your child doing drugs, and you know you had been telling him not to do so. Would you say "screw that kid, he deserved to be damned." Or you will go in front of him and say "Stop!" Unless God saw his limit and he couldn't teleport to the scene to stop Eve in time.

Well, there is a third choice. The above events never took place, I was making stuff up.
 
Originally posted by daktaklakpak
Let's look at the origin of the sin at the garden of Eden.

The existence of serpent is enough to prove God is either evil or having limited power. God is evil because he needs the snake to turn his boring life into something interesting. If not, then by unable to eliminate the snake at the first place, God had shown his limit.
You missed the point.
He created the serpent, too.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV).

God didn't stop Eve from eating the fruit also proves God is either evil or having limited power. He is evil because he knew it will happen and just let it happened. If you see your child doing drugs, and you know you had been telling him not to do so. Would you say "screw that kid, he deserved to be damned." Or you will go in front of him and say "Stop!"
He didn't do either of those two choices.

He fixed the problem.

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
(Genesis 3:15, KJV).

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(Galatians 3:13, KJV).

Well, there is a third choice. The above events never took place, I was making stuff up.
But you know you weren't.
 
Re: Re: God is evil or having limited power?

Originally posted by tony1

You missed the point.
He created the serpent, too.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV).


He didn't do either of those two choices.

He fixed the problem.

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
(Genesis 3:15, KJV).

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(Galatians 3:13, KJV).



First, how did that fix the problem if the devil is still out there doing evil.

Second, since god created evil and the serpent in the first place; what's the problem?

Third, that quote from genisis......what the hell does THAT mean?
 
Re: Re: Re: God is evil or having limited power?

Originally posted by felix
First, how did that fix the problem if the devil is still out there doing evil.

Second, since god created evil and the serpent in the first place; what's the problem?

Third, that quote from genisis......what the hell does THAT mean?
Where to start?

The problem is the problem daktaklakpak identified.

The quote from Genesis...
The serpent is satan, who gets his head bruised, by losing the power of death.

The seed is Jesus Christ, who gets his heel bruised, by getting crucified.

The devil isn't out there doing evil. People do evil.
 
Interesting interpretation. Does it come from is context within the surrouding verses? Or is that just what you were told it means?

And what problem did daktaklakpak identify?

So there IS no devil anymore? People just suddenly turn to evil? What IS evil, anyway?
 
Originally posted by felix
And what problem did daktaklakpak identify?
Maybe you don't understand this Internet thing, message boards, posting, etc.

It isn't just a case of write, write, write.

The other half of the equation is that you are supposed to read what the other posters write, so that you won't have to ask one poster what another poster wrote.
 
Originally posted by tony1

Maybe you don't understand this Internet thing, message boards, posting, etc.

It isn't just a case of write, write, write.

The other half of the equation is that you are supposed to read what the other posters write, so that you won't have to ask one poster what another poster wrote.


Your ability to avoid questions is staggering, tony. I'm asking for whatever problem YOUR mind extracted from the statement daktaklakpak made. I didn't ask what daktaklakpak wrote. So yet again, you would do well to take your own advice and turn it on yourself.
 
Originally posted by felix
I'm asking for whatever problem YOUR mind extracted from the statement daktaklakpak made.
Carrying on a conversation with you must be an adventure.

It seems as though every question is a question about another question in the answerer's mind.

Most people converse at a single level, where their questions relate to what they want to know.

Your questions appear to be second-level questions, where your questions relate to what the other person wants to know.

Interesting.

You do realize that answers are hard to come by when you do that, because second-level questions require second-level answers.

Of course, no answer will ever be satisfactory, since your questions are not based on your own desire to know, but what you think the other's desire to know is.
 
Tony, the effort you put into not answering questions will probably never cease to amaze me.

I'm was asking for opinion. That came from my desire to know your opinion.

Besides, you don't want to know anything beyond what you've already learned, so I promise I won't ask what you want to know. I already know the answer to that question anyway.
 
Re: Re: God is evil or having limited power?

Originally posted by tony1

You missed the point.
He created the serpent, too.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV).

Hmm, from your interpretation, God is having limited power.
If God created the evil, yet he is not evil, then the only possibility is that God was forced to do it by a power that even he has to obey.

Unless you want to claim that God created evil because he wanted to, and he was doing that for the love of human, then I don't know what to say. :D


He didn't do either of those two choices.

He fixed the problem.

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
(Genesis 3:15, KJV).

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(Galatians 3:13, KJV).

Well, maybe God did make some patch to fix the problem. But the harm was already done. A complete prevention could take place but God didn't do it. Isn't that evil enough? ;)
 
Last edited:
the only possibility is that God was forced to do it by a power that even he has to obey.
Yes - that power is... Himself. Even He has to obey Himself. What I mean is that He desires us to have free will so that we will truly have the ability to love him freely, and this free will leads us to disobey Him, thus indirectly creating evil.

A complete prevention could take place but God didn't do it
Just because He <i>can</i> doesn't mean that He will, or should. He didn't want to interfere with our own free will to decide whether or not we want to follow Him.

~Caleb
 
Free will? My witch's eye!

Stick to the antiscience. At least there you aren't resorting to a simplicity aspiring to Tony1's brand of apologism. This, for instance, since that first paragraph was ludicrous:
Just because He can doesn't mean that He will, or should. He didn't want to interfere with our own free will to decide whether or not we want to follow Him.
If God wanted humans to use free will to elect to obey him, he would not have to bribe us at the very least, or threaten us with deprivation.

Consider for a moment two pagan slogans: on the one hand, the Rede; to the other, the Law of Thelema. They both sound very similar, but the Law of Thelema makes an assumption about human nature that the Rede instructs toward directly. Where the Rede states, An thou harm none, the Law of Thelema assumes that harming none is implicit in Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

There are no bribes, no threats. In the Law of Thelema, it is assumed that one would not create detriment for themselves by harming others, a perspective found in the living manifestation of the Threefold Law. It assumes that common sense would lead a person to the ideal benefit; a dangerous assumption, indeed, in a world so ravaged by the Christian pursuit of victory.

Think of Old Testament law: much of it seems commonsense. No buggery? Well, there's always considerations of disease and wasted seed whilst the tribe wanders aimlessly through the desert. No tattoos? Again, disease. I can't yet figure the temple locks bit, but I figure there's a number of reasons why I haven't. Why should one not covet their neighbor's wife? Because the guy will beat the holy living shite out of you if you do--though apparently I've gotten away with it more times than I realized, so perhaps that's not the best example to put against experience. What happens to a community when everyone is jealous of each other and out for vengeance? Hardly a positive state of affairs. Can you see the common sense here?

It's why racism is bad for society: common sense. It is better for the community and the indviduals comprising said community if people are not in a constant state of distrust based solely on a paranoia of skin color and the practical result thereof. One can determine from human experience that racism is not accurate, and that such inaccuracies compel people to make decisions which inaccurately describe their best benefit.

A juxtaposition of results works here: a common, mistaken interpretation of the Law of Thelema would have people behaving with ludicrous greed and inconsideration in their pursuit of goals. This breakdown comes from the same place many religions break: undereducation. Apply it to racism: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Certes, one compelled to hate another for ethnic bigotry might find justification in the Law. However, as we see with racist policies in the United States, such behavior brings about a detriment to the whole community. In the 1980's we in the United States blamed much of the nation's drug problem on minorities, since that was where the problem was most visible. Yet consider the imbalance of the crack standard: 2,389 of 2,400 prosecutions of the crack standard were against black Americans in 1995 while 65% of the crack users were white. What this created was a community of black people who have served prison time, who then find it harder to get good jobs because of their record, and remain in conditions of poverty and reduced opportunity where crime becomes a more legitimate means of advance. As we saw with Alcohol Prohibition, the Drug War fostered gang wars in the 1980's. The Drug War Prohibition has largely centered within those minority communities already deprived of economic empowerment by a society that largely held their skin color against them. The racism of the police only added to the stress that racism already wrought on society, inciting more desperate conditions, causing paranoia on the market and increasing the violence associated with the black market. Thus, while one does what one will in the form of pressing minorities in quest of a pale-faced dominance of society, that will only contributed to the danger of that society toward the individual. To do what one will, then, in this case, is to the detriment of the one. Should that one realize that detriment, the one has a chance to reduce the detriment by reexamining the will.

To lead a people with bribes and threats, though, creates a certain jealousy among that people. To limit the argument to a specific example for a moment, I might comment on what I have observed among Seventh-Day Adventism: it is difficult for a person to "compete" in society--that is, keep up with the Joneses, as the saying has it--and still honor the precepts of their faith. Many SDA's are aware of this, and attempt to shield their children amid a web of propaganda that leaves the child paranoid about society. The fear of falling behind, and the jealousy of what other people enjoy--worldly pleasures, for instance--brings about only one seemingly acceptable solution: to prohibit everyone as one prohibits their own self. Here we can step back from a very vivid example and attempt to apply it slightly more generally. What harm does a homosexual in society do to a heterosexual Christian? It has not been accurately documented, insofar as I can tell. However, we see Christians in Oregon attempting to deny homosexuals the liberty of participating in society, attempting to deny them equality before the law. One feels better about one's own prohibitions if one can apply them to others. In 1992, this killed two people in a firebombing. In the larger scheme, however, the laws proposed by Christians in Oregon would create an ostracism, enforce a separation of rights from people, and create a detriment to society by marginalizing a segment of the population. History demonstrates that such arbitrary marginalizations are bad for society; in older times, religious folk burned at the stake for simple doctrinal disagreements; in the last century, womens' rights have advanced, though in the oppressive segments of society we still see violence against women justified by the inability of the women to overcome violence with violence. (Incidentally, one of George W Bush's last death warrants was for a woman who killed her husband in an attempt to stop bone-fracturing physical abuse. How is it good for society to force women to submit to beatings and sexual violations?)

If anything disappoints me acutely about the society I live in, it is that we can have accomplished so much more on behalf of all people if we weren't obsessing on the divisions we create in our consciences. We have a military budget that surpasses the financial power of many nations--why must we dedicate ourselves so greatly to the killing of other people for greed? (Not, Why do we? for most of us have a pretty good picture of the arbitrary divisions people make, and the results thereof. But Why must we? Who says Jews and Muslims can't get along? Only the Jews and Muslims and their unverifiable assumptions. Irish Catholics and British Protestants? Men and women? Blacks and whites? It is merely an assumption that there is no better way.)

This is all caused by assumptions of reward, and the standards thereof. And fear of deprivation and punishment. It's a comparison of how one person stands in relation to another as relates the goal. People do not abide by common sense, but by the greed of attaining the promised reward.

God does interfere with the free-will decision by placing other factors on the table. We see that pursuit of redemption has had a wicked effect on the human endeavor; and, yes, this is largely a matter of undereducation: Christians throughout history have accepted the reality of the Devil on faith, yet that very Devil cannot fit into the scheme without either invalidating the scope and authority of God, or else making the Devil a part of the divine plan and therefore a concept to be respected. And we see what this has created: witch-burnings, property seizures, wars ... are these things really the fruits of faith in God?
In the mouth of Society are many diseased teeth, decayed to the bones of the jaws. But Society makes no efforts to have them extracted and be rid of the affliction. It contents itself with gold fillings. Many are the dentists who treat the decayed teeth of Society with glittering gold. (Gibran)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
Re: Free will? My witch's eye!

Originally posted by tiassa
Consider for a moment two pagan slogans: on the one hand, the Rede; to the other, the Law of Thelema. They both sound very similar, but the Law of Thelema makes an assumption about human nature that the Rede instructs toward directly. Where the Rede states, An thou harm none, the Law of Thelema assumes that harming none is implicit in Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

There are no bribes, no threats. In the Law of Thelema, it is assumed that one would not create detriment for themselves by harming others,
A pretty wild assumption.
Applying the law of thelema to a desert island scenario, where there might be two people, but food for only one, makes it difficult to see how one might zero in on the detriment.
In a universe with only the law of thelema in operation, it might seem perfectly rational to harm one of the island residents.

a common, mistaken interpretation of the Law of Thelema would have people behaving with ludicrous greed and inconsideration in their pursuit of goals.
Really? Could it be possible?
Should that one realize that detriment, the one has a chance to reduce the detriment by reexamining the will.
Should one not realize it, we'd have a state of affairs very similar to today's.
 
If God wanted humans to use free will to elect to obey him, he would not have to bribe us at the very least, or threaten us with deprivation.

Tiassa, how does God bribe us?

How does God threaten us with deprivation?

It is not God who tempts. If you would remember from your reading of Genesis, it was the devil who did the tempting.
You see, because of Adam and Eve's distrust in God and trust in Satan this is why we are in the state in which we are in. God has gotten the willing out of this state, to be fully out and anew at the second coming of Jesus. God hasn't bribed us in anyway. Sure, we are deprived of sin, but isn't that a good thing? I would much prefer a world where you didn't have to worry about your possessions being stolen, where thief steals and moth destroys.
But soon (I don't know when, could be anytime) to live in a world where there is no thief and no moth that destroys(there could be moths, but they wouldn't destroy) a new Heaven and a new Earth. You don't want to be a part of this? I am looking much forward to this day. For I hate death. One of the few things I could honestly say I hate. To tell you something of myself, this is why I plan on dying on my own with noone to care about my death on this Earth. Not to sound depressing or anything its just that I don't like seeing people sad. My time on this Earth would be just a memory. Like everything else. Everything of how I am living now in fifty years(not to say I'll be dead on this Earth then) will be just a memory and at the moment thats the way I just have to accept things are. I want things to be forever, and this is what I must wait for. I could ask for this now, but I can also thank my glorious God that I can actually have the chance to wait.

However, its not to say that God does not have a part in our lives. God plays a big part in my life. He helps me, councils me, guides me and He teaches me. For this I am so grateful. He is the only one whom I can fully trust. For humans many a many a times have taken advantage of my kindness, but hey it happens to us all. Though they may be full of deceit, my God is not. For He is the giver of kindness. Nothing evil in Him can be found. For it is Satan who masquerades as an angel of light, in fact he has to masquerade that people may take notice. But my God, He does not, for there is no evil in Him.


You all give the child example. I guess its wrong to discipline children these days. If the child does wrong its the parents fault. Yet if the parent can not do anything when the child does wrong then society looks down on that parent. A catch twenty-two. So while you go on sinning and see other people doing evil, you go on blaming God who so lovingly created us and gave us a way out of all this sin. But when the child disobeys even this way out, it is called bribery and deceit. There will be no sin in Heaven, and for that I am grateful. For to live like this forever would just drive me nuts.

Thanks.
 
Originally posted by Deadwood


Tiassa, how does God bribe us?

How does God threaten us with deprivation?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I couldn't help myself.

He bribes us with eternal life and happiness in heaven as long as we're willing to give the church felacio.

He threatens us with eternal damnation if we use the free will He gave us.
 
Reality Check

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

<i>Gen 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was <b>only evil continually</b>.

Judg 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Prov 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes:

Prov 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

Prov 16:25 There is a way that <b>seemeth right</b> unto a man, but the end thereof are the <b>ways of death</b>.

Prov 30:12 There is a generation that are pure <b>in their own eyes</b>, and yet is <b>not</b> washed from their filthiness.

Jer 17:9 The heart is <b>deceitful</b> above all things, and <b>desperately wicked</b>: who can know it?
</i>

~Caleb
 
Re: Reality Check

Originally posted by Caleb


<i>Gen 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was <b>only evil continually</b>.
</i>
HE made us that way. So what does this mean? "oops"?



<i>
Judg 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Prov 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes:

Prov 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

Prov 16:25 There is a way that <b>seemeth right</b> unto a man, but the end thereof are the <b>ways of death</b>.

Prov 30:12 There is a generation that are pure <b>in their own eyes</b>, and yet is <b>not</b> washed from their filthiness.

Jer 17:9 The heart is <b>deceitful</b> above all things, and <b>desperately wicked</b>: who can know it?
</i>
~Caleb
If we are to take these to heart, then EVERYONE is wrong all the time. After all, the path to rightousness was set by men. The teachings of the church are set forth by men. Even the bible is really the word of men, for while it claims to be the word of god, it was written by men.
 
If we are to take these to heart, then EVERYONE is wrong all the time.
Well, you know that can't be true, because people can do lots of things right. Just being able to post to this forum means that someone set up a webserver and some CGI scripts right.

So what does "wrong" in this connotation mean? I would guess that it means morally. In that case, yes, the Bible says all humanity is morally wrong. If you say that's unfair, you're at a dead-end. How can you argue with God that he set His standards too high?
 
Originally posted by Caleb

Yes - that power is... Himself. Even He has to obey Himself. What I mean is that He desires us to have free will so that we will truly have the ability to love him freely, and this free will leads us to disobey Him, thus indirectly creating evil.
Tony1 said God created the evil, and you claimed that God only obey to himself. Hmm, looks like it's God's will to create evil after all. How could God not responsible for his evil creation? Instead, he blamed his flawed creation, Adam and Eve, for trusting his evil creation(the serpent). (Adam and Eve were flawed because they had the tendency to trust evil.)

Even throwing a coin will get you head or tail. What did God expect from free will? Was He gambling? He obviously lost in that one.


Just because He <i>can</i> doesn't mean that He will, or should. He didn't want to interfere with our own free will to decide whether or not we want to follow Him.
Just like my original post said, God is evil because he wanted to screw all the humans. Offering his son was just a lame after thought. Second coming is just a two thousand year old joke.
 
re: Reality Check

Caleb--

It is my opinion that you have missed the point by some considerable measure. This is what happens when you reduce yourself to the standards of Tony1: assuming context without a sense of empathy, thus placing the point within your own context so that your own answers seem appropriate to your own opinion); and employing Biblical quotes without any sense of contextual propriety and thus assuming that you need not take the risk of developing your own expression. It creates the appearance that you are 1) incapable of understanding the point to which you respond, 2) incapable of perceiving the entirety of the post, since the Law of Thelema was an argumentative example used to demonstrate a point, and 3) incapable of constructing your own perspective and thus offering subjective philosophy with the assumption of its definitive objectivity. This last is a result of the religiously-inspired arrogance that comes from numbing the intangible human connections of empathy and sympathy: you cannot reach out across the void to even attempt to envision the perspective of another since the assumed correctness of your own vision compels you to naturally presume another is wrong simply because they disagree with you.

This is a remarkable phenomenon in the sense that Christianity prides itself--and that word is not used lightly--on its sense of compassion. A stark example of the result of this was an occasion in which I witnessed a Christian "helping" a man who had fallen ill in the street. An associate of mine, who had not consumed a tremendous amount of alcohol--his illness was later determined to be a bad chimichunga--left the bar where we had just arrived and vomited in the street. He was in bad shape when I arrived, just in time to see a man approach and ask, "Are you alright?" Getting no verbal response from the sick man, the good samaritan said, "Here," and handed him a piece of paper, presumably to clean his mouth with. However, the next thing the man said is, "You need Jesus Christ," and walked off into the night. The paper he gave over was a single-page religious tract excoriating homosexuals. In the Christian man's mind, he had done a service, and reached out to a soul in distress; of course, he left a man ill in the street. In the end, our associate rejoined us and sat quietly in the bar all night, drinking only water and snacking delicately on potato chips. He smiled ironically the whole time. As others in our assembled party commented on the hollowness of the Christian man's "help", my associate noted: "What more can we expect? I can't ask anything more than he's capable of giving, right?"

It ended the discussion there: the Christian had done all that he was capable of doing--ignoring the immediate need of another in quest for the higher cause. It's what we expect anyway.

And we never ate Mexican food in that town again.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top