god has no free will, therefore god is not moral.

[audible]

God has no Free Will

There are three proofs that God has no "free will" using two properties of a white light God, and the fact it is said to be an ultimate Creator:

* Omniscience (all-knowing): An omniscient being does not have free will.
* Benevolence: An all-good God has no free will.
* God exists outside of time... where there is no free will
* Conclusion: God is not moral

* An omniscient being does not have free will

If you are all-knowing, you know your future actions, what choices you will make, and you cannot change them otherwise your knowledge would be wrong, and you wouldn't be all-knowing. An omniscient being has no free will to choose actions; all it's actions are predetermined.

"There is a lightswitch on the wall; God may either turn it on, or leave it off; but, since God already knows the future, God knows that he will turn it on. That is part of his knowledge. But what if God exercises freewill, and chooses not to turn it on. Is this possible?"

You are reading this webpage, which means that at some point you made a choice to start reading it. You feel you "chose" to read it. You also know that you do not have free will to go back and change that choice. It is impossible, even if you want to: you can't. If you knew a choice you was going to make in the future... what would it mean? You would have no free will to change that choice. No option, no choices... based on the fact that you know it's going to happen, it is predestined and no amount of strong will can change it.

As soon as an omniscient being comes into existence it already knows every action it will make. In effect God is an observer. An omniscient being has no free will - it's entire future is set out and it has no choice but to follow it's predestined path. God knows your prayers before you make them, it already knows what sacrifices are going to made to him and who is devoted enough to make them. We have nothing to prove to an omniscient god, and none of our actions will "change it's mind":

It already knows what our actions will be, therefore it's mind is already set. We present no new knowledge so cannot change it's mind. Knowing it's own future, too, it can never change it's own mind so has no free will

* An all-good God has no free will

Out of the possible options in a situation God always makes the best choice because it is perfectly benevolent. It cannot do something that is less moral or "good" than something else, because that would not be perfectly good, but merely second-best good. So in every situation, God only has one choice: The most moral/good one. It is easy to see that God itself does not have free will. It can make no choices, every moment in time for an omniscient-benevolent God only allows one action. In order to give God it's free will, we would have to take away it's omniscience - it's all-knowing nature - or take away it's benevolence.

* God exists outside of time... where there is no free will

Free will is the making of choices according to our own deliberation. Deliberation requires thought, and thought requires change over time. If time was frozen and nothing changed, no-one would have free will. Free will is a concept that only exists inside the timeline. If God is, as is required, a creator of Time and Space, then God exists outside of time. It is senseless to talk of "before" the big bang, "before" the creation of time because there was no "before", no passage of time before then.

In this "void" where nothing changes, God has no free will. It's thoughts can't change and flow because time does not change for anything that extends outside of 4D. Taking the hypercube as an example, it may *appear* to us to change over time as we view it in a series of 3D slices, but in reality the hypercube is completely unchanging from it's own point of view. From God's own point of view there is no "thinking", no change in states of mind over time. All choices were instantly made according to what is most "perfect" (if God is a perfect creator), there were never any choices or willpower involved. By it's very nature, if God is perfect and created Time, God has had no free will to either engage, change or affect any free will on it's own part.

* Conclusion: God is not moral

God is triply denied free will, the following three contradict the existence of a being with Free Will:

An omniscient being cannot have free will
A perfectly benevolent God cannot have free will
The creator of time cannot have free will

What is the point of saying that God is moral, if God cannot choose to do anything bad? How can it be a moral being, if it has no choice? The answer is that God is not a moral being, it is a morally neutral being.

V Crabtree

 

[stefan]

you only have to read the christian bible to know the god of the christians, has no morals, he has broken nearly all of his own commandments.

 

[Yorda]

Because "God" is impersonal and has no free will, he is perfect. What does moral mean? It is a human concept. The conscious power to distinguish between good and evil. Look at the insects and animals, they haven't yet been separated from God, from the paradise. They are controlled by his will. That is why they never do anything wrong. For an animal, there is no right or wrong, because they are both in balance. A lion may kill, but that is the way God is, when he expresses himself when he is in a lions body. Animals don't do anything wrong if they kill. They are not conscious of right and wrong. They obey God on animal level, we humans must obey him on human level, on godly level, because humans are able to be as God (Jesus). God has given animals and humans different laws.

Humans see everything from a personal point because they stuck in their body. God is not in a body, he sees everything from a universal, impersonal point of view. A while ago, there was an undersea earthquake which resulted in a tsunami which in turn killed about 300000 humans. This may seem as an evil thing for God to do. But God (we could call it nature in this case) is impersonal. This earthquake was a natural thing. It was necessary to happen. Otherwise, the universe couldn't work. There is no light without darkness. The bad things which happen on earth happen so that we would learn what is good. Bad things come from God. They are not worse than the good things.

 

[Dreamwalker]

You sure do know alot about some god, don't you?

Well now, how do you know anything about an impersonal god? It may just be that everything is pure chance, created by chaos. This thing that you title god/nature may just be a result of pure coincidence, hence, there is no proof for such a god to even exist. What you worship then, is just pure chance.

 

[water]

God has no Free Will

There are three proofs that God has no "free will" using two properties of a white light God, and the fact it is said to be an ultimate Creator:

* Omniscience (all-knowing): An omniscient being does not have free will.
* Benevolence: An all-good God has no free will.
* God exists outside of time... where there is no free will
* Conclusion: God is not moral

* An omniscient being does not have free will
/.../

V Crabtree

Describing the god of necessity.

Emphasizes by me:

Paganism is ignorance of the true God, an erroneous belief that His creation is divine, really a god. This god, however, who is Nature, is impersonal, a blind force, above all personal gods, and is called Necessity ([...]). In reality, this Necessity is the projection of human reason, as a mathematical necessity governing the world, It is a projection of rationalism upon nature. This rationalistic Necessity is the true, supreme blind god of the pagans. The pagan gods are parts of the world, and they are immortal because of the immortality of nature which is their essence. In this pagan mentality, man is also god like the others, because for the pagans the real man is only his soul, and they believe that man's soul is immortal in itself, since it is part of the essence of the universe, which is considered immortal in itself and self-existent. So man also is god and a measure of all things.

But the gods are not free. They are governed by Necessity which is impersonal.

/.../

You see now, I hope, how God was slandered by Western theology. Augustine, Anselm, Thomas Aquinas and all their pupils contributed to this "theological" calumny. And they are the foundations of Western theology, whether Papist or Protestant. Certainly these theologians do not say expressly and clearly that God is a wicked and passionate being. They rather consider God as being chained by a superior force, by a gloomy and implacable Necessity like the one which governed the pagan gods. This Necessity obliges Him to return evil for evil and does not permit Him to pardon and to forget the evil done against His will, unless an infinite satisfaction is offered to Him.

/.../

But what is more important for our subject, they began to feel that God was subject to Necessity, to this rationalistic Necessity which was nothing else but human logic. They declared Him incapable of coming into contact with inferior beings like men, because their rationalistic, philosophical conceptions did not permit it, and it was this belief which was the foundation of the hesychast disputes; it had already begun with Augustine who taught that it was not God Who spoke to Moses but an angel instead.

It is in this context of Necessity, which even gods obey, that we must understand the Western juridical conception of God's justice. It was necessary for God to punish man's disobedience. It was impossible for Him to pardon; a superior Necessity demanded vengeance. Even if God was in reality good and loving, He was not able to act lovingly. He was obliged to act contrary to His love; the only thing He could do, in order to save humanity, was to punish His Son in the place of men, and by this means was Necessity satisfied.

Source.

 

[Yorda]

My God is the God who inspired all religions: the self of all things ("I am")

"God" (our true self) is within all things. If man knows himself (not the personal self), he knows God. Nothing is a chance. Even a single atom cannot be the "result" of a chance. Too many conditions are necessary for it to be. To say that something is a chance is to escape the question. Truly, there is enough proof of ME (God) so that I could believe that I exist!

 

[audible]

Describing the god of necessity.

if your refering to a god as the god of necessity, you mean, as a metaphor for say, the sun, or nature, I would agree.
but if you mean a god is necessary, required.
you are surely wrong, a morally neutral god is unnecessary, it would not understand anything, love, hate, good, evil, etc....
it is excess to requirement.

 

[water]

if your refering to a god as the god of necessity, you mean, as a metaphor for say, the sun, or nature.
but if you mean a god is necessary, required.
you are surely wrong, a morally neutral god is unnecessary, it would not understand anything, love, hate, good, evil, etc....
it is excess to requirement.

I am saying that you (the article you posted) have described a god who is bound by necessity. Such a god did not create anything, neiher does he actually do anyhting, or can do anything by his own will, as he has none since he is bound by necessity.

And the gods who are like that are the pagan gods, whose omnipotence is limited by necessity, and who are intrinsically whimsical.

State your case first: What god are you talking about? All gods are not the same.
Zeus is not the same as Jehovah.

 

[cole grey]

AUDIBLE says - "An all-good God has no free will"

But the God you describe must act, at all times, to effectuate the best possible situation, because it is "good", and to refrain from acting would be "bad". We know that that God which is all-good, and must act all the time, cannot exist, unless you are Leibniz, living in the best of all POSSIBLE worlds, (which you aren't), or blind to reality.

Describing a God that cannot exist doesn't add any information to my life.
I agree that your God, which cannot possibly exist, would have no free-will.

ALSO, if God exists, you better hope God is moral, and not like the fundies describe, or you would burn in hell... me too, possibly.

Also,
something about Neitzsche, but I'm tired, nevermind.

 

[Clockwood]

If there is a god, I do not picture him as being good. I picture him as being perfect neutral, without concern for individual human life one way or the other. I think the smallest terms he can think and plan on is whole cultures or possibly whole species. A murder or even a genocide means little when you see a thousand worlds, each as living and vibrant as our own, die every day.

 

[the preacher]

audible uses the capitalise G for god which signifys the one God the christian God, to me he's stating that the christian God is morally neutral, therefore cannot exist.
that is quite obvious to me.

water: "All gods are not the same." no there not but the one God is according to the bible, "audible, stated * Omniscience (all-knowing): An omniscient being does not have free will. * Benevolence: An all-good God has no free will. * God exists outside of time... where there is no free will. * Conclusion: God is not moral." as such the christian God cannot exist.

clockwood: how can a god be perfectly neutral and exist, it may as well not be there.

 

[pavlosmarcos]

AUDIBLE says - "An all-good God has no free will"

But the God you describe must act, at all times, to effectuate the best possible situation, because it is "good", and to refrain from acting would be "bad". We know that that God which is all-good, and must act all the time, cannot exist, unless you are Leibniz, living in the best of all POSSIBLE worlds, (which you aren't), or blind to reality.

Describing a God that cannot exist doesn't add any information to my life.
I agree that your God, which cannot possibly exist, would have no free-will.

ALSO, if God exists, you better hope God is moral, and not like the fundies describe, or you would burn in hell... me too, possibly.

Also,
something about Neitzsche, but I'm tired, nevermind.

if it had no free will it would constantly be doing good things but not knowing the were good, which is'nt the case, is'it
which make the god inept therefore not worthy.

 

[Clockwood]

clockwood: how can a god be perfectly neutral and exist, it may as well not be there.

Notice that he doesn't muddle around much in the mortal world much? He may as well not be there.

If he exists, he is doing things for his benifit, not ours. I don't think he would give a damn how much one individual suffers or if they die as long as it doesn't mess up his plan.

 

[cole grey]

pavmarc- "if it had no free will it would constantly be doing good things but not knowing the were good, which is'nt the case, is'it
which make the god inept therefore not worthy. "

I'm not sure what the last third of that sentence means.

 

[pavlosmarcos]

given that audibles premise is right an all good god can have no free will. it would not have an worth therefore would not exist, it would be far to inept, it would be like given a hammer and nails to a chimp and asking it to build a house.
if it did exist you could not call it god.
it would be more akin to a ameoba.

 

[cole grey]

The all-good God, who must act, and cannot refrain from taking action, cannot exist, I agree. Or we have a completely twisted idea of the definition of "good".

 

[water]

The main "problem" with God is that he is powerful. This is what is so devastating for humans, that they'd rather God wouldn't exist.

 

[Ozymandias]

How does knowing what you will do make the choice less free? I know that if I am offered a choice between a bar of chocolate and a pile of steaming dung that I will choose the former. That does not make the choice less free when it is presented to me.

Why do you presume that his decision is dependent upon his knowledge? Why couldn't it be the other way: God's knowledge comes from knowing God's will.

 

[Clockwood]

If god's knowlege is directly linked with his will... it can only mean that he is micromanaging the paths of every subatomic partical in existence ever nanosecond of the day. It would also remove the possibility of human free will, as is often stated.

 

[Warrior61]

God has no Free Will

There are three proofs that God has no "free will" using two properties of a white light God, and the fact it is said to be an ultimate Creator:

* Omniscience (all-knowing): An omniscient being does not have free will.
* Benevolence: An all-good God has no free will.
* God exists outside of time... where there is no free will
* Conclusion: God is not moral

* An omniscient being does not have free will

If you are all-knowing, you know your future actions, what choices you will make, and you cannot change them otherwise your knowledge would be wrong, and you wouldn't be all-knowing. An omniscient being has no free will to choose actions; all it's actions are predetermined.

"There is a lightswitch on the wall; God may either turn it on, or leave it off; but, since God already knows the future, God knows that he will turn it on. That is part of his knowledge. But what if God exercises freewill, and chooses not to turn it on. Is this possible?"

You are reading this webpage, which means that at some point you made a choice to start reading it. You feel you "chose" to read it. You also know that you do not have free will to go back and change that choice. It is impossible, even if you want to: you can't. If you knew a choice you was going to make in the future... what would it mean? You would have no free will to change that choice. No option, no choices... based on the fact that you know it's going to happen, it is predestined and no amount of strong will can change it.

As soon as an omniscient being comes into existence it already knows every action it will make. In effect God is an observer. An omniscient being has no free will - it's entire future is set out and it has no choice but to follow it's predestined path. God knows your prayers before you make them, it already knows what sacrifices are going to made to him and who is devoted enough to make them. We have nothing to prove to an omniscient god, and none of our actions will "change it's mind":

It already knows what our actions will be, therefore it's mind is already set. We present no new knowledge so cannot change it's mind. Knowing it's own future, too, it can never change it's own mind so has no free will

* An all-good God has no free will

Out of the possible options in a situation God always makes the best choice because it is perfectly benevolent. It cannot do something that is less moral or "good" than something else, because that would not be perfectly good, but merely second-best good. So in every situation, God only has one choice: The most moral/good one. It is easy to see that God itself does not have free will. It can make no choices, every moment in time for an omniscient-benevolent God only allows one action. In order to give God it's free will, we would have to take away it's omniscience - it's all-knowing nature - or take away it's benevolence.

* God exists outside of time... where there is no free will

Free will is the making of choices according to our own deliberation. Deliberation requires thought, and thought requires change over time. If time was frozen and nothing changed, no-one would have free will. Free will is a concept that only exists inside the timeline. If God is, as is required, a creator of Time and Space, then God exists outside of time. It is senseless to talk of "before" the big bang, "before" the creation of time because there was no "before", no passage of time before then.

In this "void" where nothing changes, God has no free will. It's thoughts can't change and flow because time does not change for anything that extends outside of 4D. Taking the hypercube as an example, it may *appear* to us to change over time as we view it in a series of 3D slices, but in reality the hypercube is completely unchanging from it's own point of view. From God's own point of view there is no "thinking", no change in states of mind over time. All choices were instantly made according to what is most "perfect" (if God is a perfect creator), there were never any choices or willpower involved. By it's very nature, if God is perfect and created Time, God has had no free will to either engage, change or affect any free will on it's own part.

* Conclusion: God is not moral

God is triply denied free will, the following three contradict the existence of a being with Free Will:

An omniscient being cannot have free will
A perfectly benevolent God cannot have free will
The creator of time cannot have free will

What is the point of saying that God is moral, if God cannot choose to do anything bad? How can it be a moral being, if it has no choice? The answer is that God is not a moral being, it is a morally neutral being.

V Crabtree

Free will? Is free will a requirement to be good. Free will is the choice between good and evil. Now God cant choose evil because he doesnt have that power. I am not saying God isnt omnipotent my definition isnt ALL POWERFUL it is ALL POWER YOU CAN HAVE now God can destroy evil but He cant do evil. Why? Because He is God. For God to be God He has to be Holy. So when I get the question Can God Sin? I make sure they know what they are asking. They are really asking can God not be God. NO HE CANT. Thats just non sense. Now what came first good or evil. The answer Good. Evil is just a spin off of GOOD. First my definition of Good is obeying God and doing what is right (GOOD- morally perfect). Definition of evil or sin is Disobedience to God. To have the ability to disobey you have to have the ability to obey.
Now that we have established good and evil and we understand that if God was evil then He wouldnt be God we can move on. Now Audible you have an understanding of good and evil already and I am not defining simple things to take away from your intelligence I am trying to be throrough. I am trying to establish why you would ever think of Free will or of good and evil and not just relate that to God. First lets go to your argument. The first point that God cant have free will because of omniscience and you are correct. Lets go back in the day shall we. Adam and Eve had a choice to obey or disobey God(Free will) The insentive to obey God would be because we love him. Disobedience or evil is when we are selfish and want to do our on thing. Now that we have a choice between good and evil we also know we should do good. For instance we know it is wrong to murder someone right. Ok. Now we dont know what we will choose but we always know that we can choose. God cant choose between good and evil because He is good. Now God knows what He will do thats understood but we know that what He does is Good. So God gave us free will we chose to disobey now there are consequences from our disobedience (ex. Tsunami, death, disease ect..)

We have a knowledge between good and evil, we have the ability to choose or what we refer to as free will, and we know that God always does good so doesnt need free will. We know that Good came before evil and that evil is just the absence of good just like darkness is the absence of light.(light came before darkness)

God isnt bound by time but that doesnt mean He cant interfere or doesnt have any power over it. The neccessity of time for action to take place is foolishness. The only neccessity is life and the ability to act. We are bound by time or we are confined inside of time because we are born and we die but see thats when God being eternal comes into play.

So just because God doesnt have free will doesnt mean that God isnt moral. He just only has one Choice or He can only do one thing, that is Good.

~His Son
Warrior61 ><>