God a funny thinker?

[atheroy]

i've been told many times that god does things his own way- and as mere mortals, god's way equates into mysteriousness when us mere mortals cannot understand the lack of logic behind god's actions. however, this arguement has never sat with me, kind of like late night burito's- it always gives me re-peato's. why is this you may ask? i figure god should be just as smart and logical as any human- more so by many times since god is supposed to be omni-this and omni-that. so why then would god work in these so-called "mysterious ways"? in some cases god would use his forsight to manipulate events in which case when the end result was obtained, hindsight should give us humans understanding to the events that happened. but, i've never seen this arguement used nor this actual situation happen- in the end it's all burito-logic shall we say. now, in the instances in which god has performed actions, i always find they lack a certain amount of thought- if any. is it because god is a retard? perhaps- but rather, i think that this would not be the case.

so, the mere mortal mind, the human, is in some way supposed to reflect god. why then do his actions make no sense to us? often show no forethought? or for that matter, any thought at all? the classic example that is around at the moment is noah- god uses no mental activity at all to discern the results of his actions. i would therefore like to question gods actual omniscience. with a knowledge of everything (and assuming we were created in his image) why would someone go about his business in such an obtuse way? i know if i was omnipotent the action of flooding the world would be farthest from my mind- i don't know of many humans that would choose this option either. so why then did god do it this way? the only conclusion i can come to is he didn't. unless he actually is a retard.

so god's actions don't add up to the sum of his parts. he is described as omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-whatever else- yet fail's miserably most of the time to employ any of these attributes and generally asses everything up by using no logic at all. if we are in god's image, logic would be apart of him as well and his superior logic would be shown to us in everything that he did. he never attempts to employ it in the bible and i ask why this is?

looking forward to responses to this one as i only formed this thought now- i'll be able to refine it against the cutting arguements of others replies.

 

[Sefter]

God isn't as omnipotent as people think, and he doesn't really interfere with things that much.

In the beginning there was God and only God. Being the entity he is he just spent his time going through every possible combination of everything there can ever be, and he switched and changed 'form' to do this. However when he came to love and morality it was not something that he could solve on his own, and it was not something that he could decide. Because there was only him then he couldn't know if he was a good being, a bad being, or even if he would be loved. The only way this could be solved was if he created objective entities that were separate from himself, and that had a choice in their lives. This way the entities could choose to love him or not, and God could see what he is actually like.

He had to create an environment for them to live in because they had to be separate from him, and he could not interfere directly with the beings because he needs to understand himself more than anything.

He created the environment and he placed beings in it that were evil in nature. However he also gave them free will so if they loved him then they would go to him.

Morality and love is not something that can be solved by him alone, he needs us to understand himself.

 

[Jenyar]

Because there was only him then he couldn't know if he was a good being, a bad being, or even if he would be loved. The only way this could be solved was if he created objective entities that were separate from himself, and that had a choice in their lives.

The Trinity invalidates this argument, as well as the one that God was simply lonely.

in some cases god would use his forsight to manipulate events in which case when the end result was obtained, hindsight should give us humans understanding to the events that happened.

Maybe God is in fact God, and not an automaton. Humans are very good at having hindsight, but much less inclined to follow up on it - or even believe what happened. In Genesis God gives Moses a song to teach the people - one that they will remember after they have forgotten God and everything He did for them. God knew they would desert Him, yet He did not do anything other than letting them learn in retrospect through this song.

The result is that God seems to interfere much less in people'l lives, than He is really active in their lives.

now, in the instances in which god has performed actions, i always find they lack a certain amount of thought- if any. is it because god is a retard? perhaps- but rather, i think that this would not be the case.

You answer your own question:

... the mere mortal mind, the human, is in some way supposed to reflect god. why then do his actions make no sense to us? often show no forethought? or for that matter, any thought at all?

Maybe because we see humanity in the Bible more clearly than we see God - until we see the truth about ourselves, which is when we start seeing God. If you don't learn anything about yourself when looking in a mirror, you are either lying to yourself or denying the truth of what you see. When people's lives and love is consistent and dependable, we see the image of God in such people. When they aren't the image of God seems blurred and chaotic. Likewise, we think we understand love but not senseless violence, but when we experience them, we know which one is "right" whether we understand it or not.

so god's actions don't add up to the sum of his parts. he is described as omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-whatever else- yet fail's miserably most of the time to employ any of these attributes and generally asses everything up by using no logic at all. if we are in god's image, logic would be apart of him as well and his superior logic would be shown to us in everything that he did. he never attempts to employ it in the bible and i ask why this is?

The words "omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-whatever else" describe perfectly why you only see where you fall short yourself. Apart from these terms being mostly philosophical constructs rather than Biblical ones, what you are seeing is probably more your inadequacy to understand God using your own means.

Even logic itself is not much more than an artificially imposed order on otherwise arbitrary thought-patterns. If logic was a sure way towards wisdom, we would all be geniuses after reading and applying Plato's or Socrates' methods of thought.

On the other hand, Proverbs say that all true wisdom comes from God. What we "understand" is only perceived order out of chaos - just like creation was order out of chaos. But God approaches from the other side of this equation. So we have:
God -> (perceived chaos) order -> creation, but:
creation -> (perceived order) chaos -> God.

OK, that does not really explain much Your main objection seems to be God's apparent illogical responses to our perfectly logical existence (hint of sarcasm, although I do mean it: everything we do seem to make perfect sense while we are doing it, but in retrospect not much of it does, in fact, the arbitrary nature of people's actions are characteristic of the experience of our fellow humans).

You said a flood should not be the optimal, logical choice (at the risk of sounding like Mr. Spock). Well, this is completely true if you take it as an isolated event - following from nothing and leading to nothing. In such a case a "snap of the fingers" would probably suffice. But: consider that the "waters above and below the earth" feature heavily in the order of chaos/bad mojo in the ancient Hebrews' mind. This is the very thing we were separated from when God created the earth. Adam was made from dust as opposed to water - yet at the same time, we as living beings are always 33% away from drowning ourselves or getting drowned. Another symbol - the ark - cf. the strikingly simlarly named "ark of the covenant", cf. the word "tomb/grave" used in the Sumerian literature, cf. the fish swallowing Jonah, cf. the parting of the Reed Sea, the Jordan, cf. Paul on the prisoner boat. cf. Jesus calming the storm. Even in Revelation, the Babylon and the beasts rise out of the seas, but before God's throne the sea is like glass.

What we learn from something usually has more to do with its symbolism - its applicabilty and relation to otherwise disconnected events - than its reality. Understading does not flow from logic, logic flows from understanding. It depends on our ability to see connections and create order. To demonstrate:
Before we discovered the earth was a globe revolving around the sun, "logic" predicted that the sun rose in the east and set in the west. When you apply logic to insufficient knowledge, you get contrived results.

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

 

[Sefter]

I agree with you in some respects Jenyar. Hindsight is a big influence in order but logic does not always come from understanding! Logic is something in itself and it can lead to understanding in some cases, and it can also lead to more answers. However I can see your point about how some things are on the other side of equations.

The Trinity invalidates this argument...

I don't see how. God could have created the trinity.

 

[Jenyar]

I don't see how. God could have created the trinity.

God definitely created the concept, but only to give us exactly this kind of insight into love. You've probably heard the much clichéd "God is love"? Love can only be experienced completely in a relationship. One might say "God is a relationship", which is almost nonsensical unless you can imagine that God can be a kind of Father, a kind of Son, and a kind of Spirit simultaneously.

It is in this image that God created us, i.e. the ability to have and live in relationships. The same Spirit that is used to give us life, He gave to us to be able to love Him. The examples are in the Bible:

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
(John 8:42)

And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
(Romans 5:5)

For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
(2 Peter 1:17)

neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 8:39)

We are truly children of God when we live according to his will - i.e. in the image He created us in - the image of love (the quote is from 1 John 4:8: Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love). Also: If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. (1 John 4:20).

As the Muslims say: far be it from the glory of God that he should beget a son. He did not create Himself.

 

[Mucker]

It is in this image that God created us, i.e. the ability to have and live in relationships

Or it could be that socially prescribed values and qualities have been given to the sexes so it is only those who enter into relationships who can see the full picture: the two halves make a whole and each half does not know what the other half possesses until it is discovered. It could be through this way that only those who wish to continue the human species are given insights.

I'm not disagreeing with you it is just something I've considered. I do actually agree with you because I beleive the sexes have natural roles which are biologically determined.

I just have to say that this always makes me smile:

with him I am well pleased

just like when it is written "it was right good", etc.

 

[Jenyar]

Mucker
Interesting thought. The Hebrew word for sexual intercourse (Yada`) is literally "to know each other" (you still see it translated that way in some Bibles) - It is also used for being intimately acquanted with something, to "know" or to "have".

Eg. You will know that I am God,

And I set my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly; I realized that this also is striving after wind.
Ecclessiastics 1:17