I was wondering what ya'lls thoughts were on the mechanization of humans through "enhancement prosthetics" (prosthetics designed to replace organic body parts with superior mechanical counterparts) and "mind uploading" (the replacement of a human brain with a mechanical counterpart and/or the copying of that brain). Where is this field at right now? Do you believe mind uploading to be possible? Without a cessation in personal continuity? How does the concept of the ghost or soul/spirit in the human machine play into this? Can one be completely mechanical and still be human? Thanks in advance.
Ghost in the machine?
- Thread starter Chiraque
- Start date
- Status
There is a distinct difference between consciousness and matter - despite the ardent endeavour of persons like Asimov to put fantasy into reality it hasn't happened - the inability of science to make the distinction between matter and consciousness has effectively put a brick wall in the development of AI
Last edited:
Chiraque:
"I was wondering what ya'lls thoughts were on the mechanization of humans through "enhancement prosthetics" (prosthetics designed to replace organic body parts with superior mechanical counterparts)"
Being a big Science Fiction fan, I read in "Ghost in the Shell" a very important thing about cybernetics: If you do not go full cybernetics, you essentially are wasting your time. For even if one arm were to have super strength, for instance, you would not be able to support the weight it could carry, without crushing your shoulder or ripping it out of the socket. Similarly, with organs, if they were too hard on the body, despite being far better, they'd be worthless.
"and "mind uploading" (the replacement of a human brain with a mechanical counterpart and/or the copying of that brain)."
If the human brains is replaced without the uploading of the mind into it, then that human ceases to exist. The human being is defined as his mind.
"Where is this field at right now?"
Infancy and will probably not create anything of worth. I do not foresee cyborgs are as a viable field beyond prosthetic replacements.
"Do you believe mind uploading to be possible?"
Unless the means whereby neurobiological signals can translate into a subjective experience within the Cartesian Theatre can be replicated flawlessly and bring with it every ounce of memory and personality of that person from beforehand, this process could not be done. Considering that there is nothing in the biological signals that explains the summoning up of certain images in one's mind when one directs one's thoughts towards that, nor the creation of a self from the mind, and various other such things. I view "mind uploading" as completely impossible.
"How does the concept of the ghost or soul/spirit in the human machine play into this? "
It would actually be much easier to do such things, if we could find, extract, and implant a soul - which would have everything with it, presumably - of someone into something else.
"Can one be completely mechanical and still be human"
If you were human before and retain your mind, yes. If not, no.
"I was wondering what ya'lls thoughts were on the mechanization of humans through "enhancement prosthetics" (prosthetics designed to replace organic body parts with superior mechanical counterparts)"
Being a big Science Fiction fan, I read in "Ghost in the Shell" a very important thing about cybernetics: If you do not go full cybernetics, you essentially are wasting your time. For even if one arm were to have super strength, for instance, you would not be able to support the weight it could carry, without crushing your shoulder or ripping it out of the socket. Similarly, with organs, if they were too hard on the body, despite being far better, they'd be worthless.
"and "mind uploading" (the replacement of a human brain with a mechanical counterpart and/or the copying of that brain)."
If the human brains is replaced without the uploading of the mind into it, then that human ceases to exist. The human being is defined as his mind.
"Where is this field at right now?"
Infancy and will probably not create anything of worth. I do not foresee cyborgs are as a viable field beyond prosthetic replacements.
"Do you believe mind uploading to be possible?"
Unless the means whereby neurobiological signals can translate into a subjective experience within the Cartesian Theatre can be replicated flawlessly and bring with it every ounce of memory and personality of that person from beforehand, this process could not be done. Considering that there is nothing in the biological signals that explains the summoning up of certain images in one's mind when one directs one's thoughts towards that, nor the creation of a self from the mind, and various other such things. I view "mind uploading" as completely impossible.
"How does the concept of the ghost or soul/spirit in the human machine play into this? "
It would actually be much easier to do such things, if we could find, extract, and implant a soul - which would have everything with it, presumably - of someone into something else.
"Can one be completely mechanical and still be human"
If you were human before and retain your mind, yes. If not, no.
The claim that conciousness is distinct from matter is unfounded. The lack of something is not proof that it cannot exist.
Personally, I think we all are cyborgs currently. We all use bicycles, telephones, and computers. Explain to me the difference between it being embedded in our flesh or hooked on the outside. I think people will be getting handsfree cell phones embedded in their skulls within the next 10 years. Then what? Are we then cyborgs?
- KitNyx
Personally, I think we all are cyborgs currently. We all use bicycles, telephones, and computers. Explain to me the difference between it being embedded in our flesh or hooked on the outside. I think people will be getting handsfree cell phones embedded in their skulls within the next 10 years. Then what? Are we then cyborgs?
- KitNyx
Last edited:
I'm sure it will happen eventually. The replacement of body parts is already happening. I think the lack of understanding of how the brain works exactly is the problem now. Are you familiar with Kurzweil's work? The Age of Spiritual Machines is an amazing book.
I am familiar with Kurzweil; *shrug* I respect his brilliance, but I side with a different approach to the field. I work in the new connectivist side, but I cannot fault a guy who has the same goals as I...of course I am by no means trying to raise myself to his level, I am just a pion trying to do my little part =)
- KitNyx
- KitNyx
It's going to happen eventually. Might not happen for another 30 years (a lot of things will happen in that time), but it will happen.
We're making steady process, taking the brain apart, chunk by chunk, starting with the parts of the brain that deal with processing sensory information. Like hearing, for example. We're mapping the algorithms and simulating them on computers. No doubt, in due time, we'll have the entire brain mapped and simulated on computers.
We are already completely mechanical. But I know what you mean by the question. We're biological, which we think of as something different than the robot from the movie with that robot named, Johnny5. My answer is that computers will always be part human. Humans are in the process of being absorbed by their own creations.
Think of humans like the mitocondria that exist in all of our cells providing them with power to provide them with metabolism. They are really their own organism in their own right. They have their own DNA, even. But they got absorbed into animals, because the animals gave them a means to proliferate and the animals received respiration in return.
Humans being absorbed by their own technology is just part of the natural way of the world. We won't be gone, but we'll be part of something bigger, better and more complex than anything we could ever imagine. (Similar to the mitocondria in your cells.)
Ya,that's a very interesting question?
What is conscioussness?Can be uploaded fron 1 body to another.
I don't think the mind(or conscioussness) can exist without a body.
I have read sci-fi like GITS too.
So far we donot have any idea or clue as to how to answer this question.
Also-take an umbrella.then 1 by 1 replace the cloth,the handle and the metal skeleton.Now is this un\mbrella the same as before?
What is conscioussness?Can be uploaded fron 1 body to another.
I don't think the mind(or conscioussness) can exist without a body.
I have read sci-fi like GITS too.
So far we donot have any idea or clue as to how to answer this question.
Also-take an umbrella.then 1 by 1 replace the cloth,the handle and the metal skeleton.Now is this un\mbrella the same as before?
Irrelevant analogy.
With the exception of your gametes, every cell in your body is new over a 7 day cycle.
Are you still you a week later?
Hammad Ahsan
Registered Member
Well, the subconcious is still there, just like the myth will ever live on even while the people pass away, just expressing my opinions.
And reading this enlightning thread, you people got me wondering, if a nano-mapped brain is downloaded to a machine, then even if the subconcious is retained, wouldn't it all crash like a Microsoft OS does under great stress, if something like this could happen, then for people with busy lives, who would restart them every time their bio-android system crashed. Plus, who would pay al that to upgrade if the better hardware comes out as fast as the current PC hardware comes out
And reading this enlightning thread, you people got me wondering, if a nano-mapped brain is downloaded to a machine, then even if the subconcious is retained, wouldn't it all crash like a Microsoft OS does under great stress, if something like this could happen, then for people with busy lives, who would restart them every time their bio-android system crashed. Plus, who would pay al that to upgrade if the better hardware comes out as fast as the current PC hardware comes out
What this entire thread amounts to is a conflict between Dualism and Monism. If you believe the mind is separate from the body, then you're a dualist. If you believe the mind and body are the same, you are a monist.
Of course, it's a lot more complicated than that. Personally, I think that monism and dualism are just two interpretations of the same reality. Both are equally useless, in my opinion. (For the record, my own beliefs tend to tilt toward monism, although I speak as a dualist as times.)
Of course, it's a lot more complicated than that. Personally, I think that monism and dualism are just two interpretations of the same reality. Both are equally useless, in my opinion. (For the record, my own beliefs tend to tilt toward monism, although I speak as a dualist as times.)
- Status