Gay marriage (split thread)

[Repo Man]

Gay marriage- states rights issue?

As you're probably aware, state laws against interracial marriage were common until ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1967.

In my opinion, state laws against gay marriage are just as unconstitutional, and just as much of a violation of the 14th Amendment.

Edit: This thread was split from a discussion about abolishing the Electoral College. One Raven said that as a states rights issue, not all states should have to allow gays to marry (using this as an example of the need for preserving states rights, which he felt dismantling the Electoral College would diminish) . I asked him if he would feel the same if he were talking about interracial marriage being allowed/disallowed on a state by state basis.

Stokes Pennwalt replied that on the basis of the 14th Amendment my argument was poor. My post was in reponse to this.

 

[MacM]

As you're probably aware, state laws against interracial marriage were common until ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1967.

In my opinion, state laws against gay marriage are just as unconstitutional, and just as much of a violation of the 14th Amendment.

In principle you are argueing for "Absolute Freedom" which I believe is unacceptable. Civilized society must draw lines as to what is acceptable human behavior.

I see no differance between trying to legitimize sodamy than trying to legitimize homosexulaity.

Nor do I believe we need to legislate restraints. The restraints should be personal responsibilities of keeping ones sexual habits confined to the privacy of the relationship.

Efforts to teach our children homosexuality as an laternate life style are simply wrong and harmful socially.

 

[Repo Man]

There's one in every crowd.
Mac, what basis do you have for condemning homosexuality? The justification for condemning it usually used is the it is forbidden in the old testament. We'll leave aside for the moment Christians (for whom the old testament has been superseded by the new) picking and choosing from the old as it suits their purpose.

But last time I checked, we do not live in a theocracy. That homosexuality is condemned by the bible is irrelevant in a country where the bible is not the law of the land.

Does the existence of gay couple harm you somehow? How can you justify denying them equal protection? Or do you feel the bible ought to be the law of the land? Well then, let's be consistent.

20:9
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

If a man has sex
with his father's wife,
kill them both
20:11
And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

If a man has sex
with his daughter in law,
kill them both
20:12
And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

If a man has sex
with another man,
kill them both
20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

If a man has sex
with his wife and her mother,
burn all three to death
20:14
And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/index.html

I hope you never talked back to your parents or comitted adultery.

 

[MacM]

There's one in every crowd.
Mac, what basis do you have for condemning homosexuality? The justification for condemning it usually used is the it is forbidden in the old testament. We'll leave aside for the moment Christians (for whom the old testament has been superseded by the new) picking and choosing from the old as it suits their purpose.

But last time I checked, we do not live in a theocracy. That homosexuality is condemned by the bible is irrelevant in a country where the bible is not the law of the land.

Does the existence of gay couple harm you somehow? How can you justify denying them equal protection? Or do you feel the bible ought to be the law of the land? Well then, let's be consistent.


http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/index.html

I hope you never talked back to your parents or comitted adultery.

No, no, and no. I condem the Bible with even more vigor than the efforts to legitimize homosexuality. It is a simple matter of pragmatisim.

All forms of living enities are of the form of male and female. Sex is clearly, biologically a male/female relationship. I do not begrudge those that choose to experience self gratification, including jerking off but to suggest it as a welcome addition to our forms of civilized human behavior and teach it to our siblings as an alternative lifestyle is shear nonsense.

It is just as animalistic and the instinct to kill. Certainly not as much to be deplored and guarded against but neither is it something to be encouraged and glorified.

Where does society (or you) draw the line on pervision? Or do you? If you do I will then ask you the same questions you are now asking me. It is very much an issue of degree of tolerance that should be allowed and still consider ourselves as civilized.

Some perversions can be tolerated in the name of freedom. Homosexuality would seem to be one. But the open advocation and legitimizing of that conduct is beyond society claiming to be civilized and begins the trip to absolute animalisim..

 

[ElectricFetus]

Not all forms of living organisms are of male/female, not even the majority of them, most life is asexual or conjugative asexual (they can share DNA or plasmids with each other). Most multi-cellular life is hermaphroditic (has both male and female sexual organs, most worms and plants)
Homosexuality is also seen in nature among male/female species. Homosexually as evidence has show is not something that can be tough but is a natural error even beneficial in some cases. Society should not condemn it but accept it as normal for some people.

 

[Repo Man]

I draw the line where nonparticipants are harmed. Other than that, both (or all) partners willing, anything goes.

There have been numerous threads about this subject where the existence of homosexual animals other than humans have been cited.

Why should there be any stigma attached to homosexuality? Because it is non procreative? What about heterosexuals who use birth control? What about heterosexuals who are sterile? Peversion? There are many heterosexuals who engage in all of the same sex acts as homosexuals.

If you read up on your anthropology, you'll find that homosexuality has been common across the Earth in virtually all cultures throughout history.

 

[geistkiesel]

No, no, and no. I condem the Bible with even more vigor than the efforts to legitimize homosexuality. It is a simple matter of pragmatisim.

All forms of living enities are of the form of male and female. Sex is clearly, biologically a male/female relationship. I do not begrudge those that choose to experience self gratification, including jerking off but to suggest it as a welcome addition to our forms of civilized human behavior and teach it to our siblings as an alternative lifestyle is shear nonsense.

It is just as animalistic and the instinct to kill. Certainly not as much to be deplored and guarded against but neither is it something to be encouraged and glorified.

Where does society (or you) draw the line on pervision? Or do you? If you do I will then ask you the same questions you are now asking me. It is very much an issue of degree of tolerance that should be allowed and still consider ourselves as civilized.

Some perversions can be tolerated in the name of freedom. Homosexuality would seem to be one. But the open advocation and legitimizing of that conduct is beyond society claiming to be civilized and begins the trip to absolute animalisim..

You assume that homosexualtiy is a choice freely made. This is very difficult to believe in the absence of proof. And even if it were, I cannot see very many men and women that voluntarily and freely choose a life of rejection, damnation, humilaition, second class citizenry and the rest. I can see emotional, sexual homosexual profiles that operate with as much intensity as any male/female/male attractions. Homosexuality has been around as long as people have. Hell the bible recognized it. The ancienbt native Americans recognized it. Tell me what business is it of yours, mine or anyone else, however the numbers of the various opinions come out, to claim some form of moral superiority over the private habits and conduct of any other human?

Many published accounts state homosexuality, sodomy, is an act that constituting perversion. I see you don't use the bible as reference, so where (how) do you arrive at the "perversion" conclusion? It seems arbitrary MacM .Who glorifies homosexuality other than homosexuals that claim love of their mate is as real and strong as any man/woman sense of "Love"? Maybe some well meaning 'liberals', to coin a group, but who are they to claim the converse of your opinion?

Aren't there any activities that aresn't subject to social scrutiny and correction until 'actual' harm is observed? Who are me or you, or james R, or Pete, or anyone, that has the right to tell another person what they can and cannot ingest into their bodies, under the most severest of penal sanctions applied for the violator?

Some people's private business just isn't any of the rest of the world's, fucking business.

Geistkiesel

Sure sociaety has to limit perversions. How about war, for starters. Soem complain about the word "motherfucker" in published music yet are silent on video games that show the slaughter of humans by humans, aerial combat wher the loser ios blasted from he sky. One i was -privy to was tirled "Killing Nazis", talk about perversions?

AS a footnote, there was a fairly well klnow P-51 WWII pilot who, when asked what his tactics were that gave him such an apparent advantage over his enemy.

He responded "I found trhat sneaking up behind them and blowing them out of the sky worked pretty well". Was this pilot "perverted"? No but the political machinery that put him ion that position was perverted.

 

[MacM]

You assume that homosexualtiy is a choice freely made. This is very difficult to believe in the absence of proof. And even if it were, I cannot see very many men and women that voluntarily and freely choose a life of rejection, damnation, humilaition, second class citizenry and the rest. I can see emotional, sexual homosexual profiles that operate with as much intensity as any male/female/male attractions. Homosexuality has been around as long as people have. Hell the bible recognized it. The ancienbt native Americans recognized it. Tell me what business is it of yours, mine or anyone else, however the numbers of the various opinions come out, to claim some form of moral superiority over the private habits and conduct of any other human?

Many published accounts state homosexuality, sodomy, is an act that constituting perversion. I see you don't use the bible as reference, so where (how) do you arrive at the "perversion" conclusion? It seems arbitrary MacM .Who glorifies homosexuality other than homosexuals that claim love of their mate is as real and strong as any man/woman sense of "Love"? Maybe some well meaning 'liberals', to coin a group, but who are they to claim the converse of your opinion?

Aren't there any activities that aresn't subject to social scrutiny and correction until 'actual' harm is observed? Who are me or you, or james R, or Pete, or anyone, that has the right to tell another person what they can and cannot ingest into their bodies, under the most severest of penal sanctions applied for the violator?

Some people's private business just isn't any of the rest of the world's, fucking business.

Geistkiesel

Sure sociaety has to limit perversions. How about war, for starters. Soem complain about the word "motherfucker" in published music yet are silent on video games that show the slaughter of humans by humans, aerial combat wher the loser ios blasted from he sky. One i was -privy to was tirled "Killing Nazis", talk about perversions?

AS a footnote, there was a fairly well klnow P-51 WWII pilot who, when asked what his tactics were that gave him such an apparent advantage over his enemy.

He responded "I found trhat sneaking up behind them and blowing them out of the sky worked pretty well". Was this pilot "perverted"? No but the political machinery that put him ion that position was perverted.

I am not a peeping tom and really give a shit what goes on behind others closed doors but I do object to Gay Pride Day and efforts to teach homosexuality as an alternative life style in our schools.

You have your opinion. I have mine. I'll tolerate some degree of deviation, I don't have to tolerate it being shoved in my face nor that of my grandchildren.

This is not midevil Greece, at least lets hope not.

 

[Mystech]

Efforts to teach our children homosexuality as an laternate life style are simply wrong and harmful socially.

You've been living in a Christian dominated society for too long. Not all groups are evangelical.

In otherworlds, no one is trying to "Teach homosexuality" to children.

 

[Mystech]

All forms of living enities are of the form of male and female.

Hmm back to biology 101, haha.

Sex is clearly, biologically a male/female relationship.

only if you've already discounted homosexuality.

Where does society (or you) draw the line on pervision?

Where do you draw the lines of personal entitlement? I say it ends at the point where you begin to believe that your own arbitrary life choices and points of view grant you the right to dictate the lives of others.

Your problem seems to be that you see homosexuals as being less than human. It's not an uncommon view, but we're just normal people like everyone else, you live and work right beside us and often never even know. If all you see is TV stereotypes and the spectacles the media puts out, then you're not getting an accurate idea of how boringly mundane we are. And like you are relationships are just as loving and just as committed. The nature of the relationship which many homosexuals live in is the same which is protected by law for all heterosexuals, we're just asking for the same bundle of legal considerations which was deemed to be befitting of this relationship.

 

[geistkiesel]

I am not a peeping tom and really give a shit what goes on behind others closed doors but I do object to Gay Pride Day and efforts to teach homosexuality as an alternative life style in our schools.

You have your opinion. I have mine. I'll tolerate some degree of deviation, I don't have to tolerate it being shoved in my face nor that of my grandchildren.

This is not midevil Greece, at least lets hope not.

I have an objection similar to yours if homosexuality is taught as an "alternative life style" as if there were some choice like being a republican or democrat, or the merits of being a football fan or a baseball fan. I haven't seen anything I can say this is what is taught. I see no problem describing homosexuality per se. I mean human social interactions should be explored to the max, but explored, not propagandized.

This kind of teaching is as repugnant as teaching Catholicism as an alternative religion.

 

[MacM]

You've been living in a Christian dominated society for too long. Not all groups are evangelical.

In otherworlds, no one is trying to "Teach homosexuality" to children

Where the hell have you been. They have pushed it through in several states to be taught in our schools as an alternative life style.

 

[MacM]

Hmm back to biology 101, haha.



only if you've already discounted homosexuality.



Where do you draw the lines of personal entitlement? I say it ends at the point where you begin to believe that your own arbitrary life choices and points of view grant you the right to dictate the lives of others.

Your problem seems to be that you see homosexuals as being less than human. It's not an uncommon view, but we're just normal people like everyone else, you live and work right beside us and often never even know. If all you see is TV stereotypes and the spectacles the media puts out, then you're not getting an accurate idea of how boringly mundane we are. And like you are relationships are just as loving and just as committed. The nature of the relationship which many homosexuals live in is the same which is protected by law for all heterosexuals, we're just asking for the same bundle of legal considerations which was deemed to be befitting of this relationship.

I have already said I don't give a shit about what happens behind closed doors. You want to suck dick you can start with mine.

 

[Mystech]

but I do object to Gay Pride Day and efforts to teach homosexuality as an alternative life style in our schools.

I'm admittedly a bit ignorant on the exact state of the acceptance of homosexuality around the world, but if you are within the United States, I'd like to ask exactly what efforts are being made in schools to promote homosexuality as an alternative life style? I suppose things do differ a bit from state to state, but I know that for instance in Arizona it's prohibited for educators to openly discuss homosexuality in any manner that might be construed as condoning in the course of sex education.

Where does this fear that homosexuals are trying to get at children come from? A quick google web search reveals no hits for “Homosexuality in schools” save for sites for organizations like NARTH, and Christian fundamentalists who seem afraid that teaching homosexuality in schools is part of the “homosexual agenda”. None of these groups seem to provide examples or links to support this claim. I can find no pages for specific groups or programs which teach children about homosexuals or homosexuality. Have you yourself had some sort of unfortunate encounter as a child? It seems to me that this fear is something of a red herring.

 

[MacM]

I'm admittedly a bit ignorant on the exact state of the acceptance of homosexuality around the world, but if you are within the United States, I'd like to ask exactly what efforts are being made in schools to promote homosexuality as an alternative life style? I suppose things do differ a bit from state to state, but I know that for instance in Arizona it's prohibited for educators to openly discuss homosexuality in any manner that might be construed as condoning in the course of sex education.

Where does this fear that homosexuals are trying to get at children come from? A quick google web search reveals no hits for “Homosexuality in schools” save for sites for organizations like NARTH, and Christian fundamentalists who seem afraid that teaching homosexuality in schools is part of the “homosexual agenda”. I can find no pages for specific groups or programs which teach children about homosexuals or homosexuality. Have you yourself had some sort of unfortunate encounter as a child? It seems to me that this fear is something of a red herring.

Where do you see me use the term "Promote"? BTW: You are no psychiaritist, so don't think you know me or where my preferences come from.

 

[Mystech]

I have an objection similar to yours if homosexuality is taught as an "alternative life style" as if there were some choice like being a republican or democrat, or the merits of being a football fan or a baseball fan.

I believe the original intent of labeling homosexuality as an "alternative lifestyle" was originally meant as a way to say that it's just another way that some people go about things, in an attempt to convey that it's harmless and homosexuals aren't scary monsters who want to let Satan loose on the world and each the children of good Christian folk.

Personally, I've never liked the term, as I think it gives too much credit to homosexuality as a major factor in someone's life. Given being a homosexual can be deeply affecting, though this is mostly through indirect implications, mostly having to do with how people will treat you, but I've never felt that the style of my life as it were would be greatly altered if I were straight. Homosexuals tend to live in a style not at all unlike the rest of the world, we're used to it, it's not an act or something we force ourselves to do to get along. We're all raised in the same culture, with the same range of values and opinions. Save for the odd lisping walking stereotype it's rather unlikely that the casual observer would see any difference between a heterosexual and homosexual so long as no matter of personal romantic relationships arose.

 

[Mystech]

Where do you see me use the term "Promote"?

The skill of reading comprehension allows me to understand themes and messages within a body of coherent text, and allows me to create generalizations, and even choose synonyms to keep my word choices fresh and the flow of speech exciting.

don't think you know me or where my preferences come from.

I apologies if it seems that I’m trying to tell you your motives. I was hoping that my comments might spur you to think a little, and offer them up of your own accord.

 

[Repo Man]

He's on to you Mystech. He must have seen this:

But seriously Mac, you get a little testy when your bigotry is challenged. What if one of your grandkids is gay? Would you want them to grow up hating themselves for it? Or would you want them to know that it was really no more important than being left handed, and they should just get on with their lives?

 

[MacM]

I'm admittedly a bit ignorant on the exact state of the acceptance of homosexuality around the world, but if you are within the United States, I'd like to ask exactly what efforts are being made in schools to promote homosexuality as an alternative life style? I suppose things do differ a bit from state to state, but I know that for instance in Arizona it's prohibited for educators to openly discuss homosexuality in any manner that might be construed as condoning in the course of sex education.

Where does this fear that homosexuals are trying to get at children come from? A quick google web search reveals no hits for “Homosexuality in schools” save for sites for organizations like NARTH, and Christian fundamentalists who seem afraid that teaching homosexuality in schools is part of the “homosexual agenda”. None of these groups seem to provide examples or links to support this claim. I can find no pages for specific groups or programs which teach children about homosexuals or homosexuality. Have you yourself had some sort of unfortunate encounter as a child? It seems to me that this fear is something of a red herring.

Arizona huh? Maybe you should do a bit of investigating and BTW have your Google fixed.

http://www.youth.org/loco/PERSONProject/Handbook/States/arizona.html

http://www.atgpress.com/atgpress/edu/edu044.htm

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Educate/Homosexuality_in_Schools.htm

http://www.sabes.org/resources/brightideas/vol9/b3lit.htm

http://www.earthgarden.com.au/ad_info/Demographics.doc.

 

[MacM]

But seriously Mac, you get a little testy when your bigotry is challenged. What if one of your grandkids is gay?

None.

Would you want them to grow up hating themselves for it? Or would you want them to know that it was really no more important than being left handed, and they should just get on with their lives?

I would be greatly disappointed but I would try to work with them if possible.

Also I am not a bigot but I do get testy when somebody with no knowledge of me refers to me as a numbskull.