From Godly to Sinful

S.A.M.

S.A.M.

uniquely dreadful
Valued Senior Member
From here:

Michael said:
I'm not for banning religion. I just think we should determine what the theists teach. For example: Monotheists used to teach that polygamy was Godly. Now it is sinful. Christians used to teach that slavery was Godly. Now it is sinful. Christians used to teach that a woman's place was behind her man. Now she is at his side. etc....

See? It's all working out quite well.
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When did Christians teach that polygamy /slavery/womans place behind man was godly?

Where do they now teach it is sinful?

Can I see some examples?
 
S.A.M. said:
From here:



When did Christians teach that polygamy /slavery/womans place behind man was godly?

Where do they now teach it is sinful?

Can I see some examples?
Click to expand...

LOL You actually listened to Micheal and placed authority on what he said? :eek:


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
S.A.M. said:
From here:



When did Christians teach that polygamy /slavery/womans place behind man was godly?

Where do they now teach it is sinful?

Can I see some examples?
Click to expand...
Well, firstly you misquoted me. Go back and read my quote, I'm pretty sure I wrote that monotheists taught polygamy was Godly. Namely Jews but also Muslims and Mormons. That said, at certain times in history Xians have taught polygamy was Godly. Early Kings of England were God's representative on earth and often were polygamous. Some Xian branches (often deemed cults - by other Xians! Haaa!) have taught polygamy was Godly.

Go to KSA, you'll find they still teach women there that polygamy is Godly.


Roman society was monogamous (in terms of marriage) and this is where Xians took the idea of monogamy - being entirely a Roman invention many Roman social norms are embedded in the Bible.


Christianity and slavery 1800 years of Xian's selling Slaves. It was also Xians that ended Slavery. The Bible, just like the Qur'an, can mean any damn thing one wants it to mean. Slavers quoted it just as often as Abolitionists.


A woman's place. Maybe you should take a look at the Church of England. Soon after they let women into the Priesthood there's been a quite shift of conservative Christians into the Catholic church. Then with Gay's... well, it's turning into a flood. The Catholic Church is even making allowances for conversions.

Secondly just visit ANY Baptist Church. here let me look for one nano second... ding Baptists: The Place of Women in the Church.
 
Adstar said:
LOL You actually listened to Micheal and placed authority on what he said? :eek:


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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No I am just curious to see if the Church has taught contradictory ideas over time. I want to compare and see where the religious institutions have denied their own religious teachings by calling something first godly, then sinful

That seems like a major undertaking.

I see from Michaels examples that the change he claims is not yet demonstrated.
 
SAM said:
No I am just curious to see if the Church has taught contradictory ideas over time
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Of course it has.

Usury would be a more obvious and less complicated example.

Lending money at compound interest was once a fairly significant sin - and, in the places and days of Christian Sharia-style law, a major crime.

Now, the CEO of my bank is an important figure in the his Christian Church and the local "conservative" Christian community.
 
SAM said:
And they teach this? As godly?

They no longer teach that usury is a sin?
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The sequence is as follows: Once upon a time, lending money at compound interest was considered a sin by the Christian Church. Now lending money at compound interest is the praised employment and respected life's work of Church members in good standing, in all the major sects.

There have been other such changes in Church teachings - in matters such as medical autopsies and treatments, women's civil liberties, divorce, inherited debt and slavery, indulgences, sexual behaviors of clerics (from celibacy to chastity, then Reformation permitting marriage in some sects), and so forth.
 
Could you show me an example of a Church edict where usury is praised as godly?
 
S.A.M. said:
Could you show me an example of a Church edict where usury is praised as godly?
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They don't accomplish it that way. Rather, they reinterpret "usury" from "lending at compound interest" to "leanding at very high interest rates."

The latter being the commonly understood definition of "usury" in modern conversation, BTW. There are also legal definitions of usury - it is a crime in most states to lend at interest rates above a certain threshold.
 
S.A.M. said:
Can I see some examples of Church writings on the subject?
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He may find some teachings from a official church organisation. But as i believe that most if not the vast majority of official church organisations in this world are false to one extent or another the point will be mute.

Point is you will find No scripture in the Christian bible that declares usury good and praiseworthy. You will only find scripture against it.

The point should not be if one church official states this or that. The focal point should be on the Scriptures that defines the Church. What it states on the matter.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
S.A.M. said:
When did Christians teach that polygamy /slavery/womans place behind man was godly?

Where do they now teach it is sinful?

Can I see some examples?
Click to expand...
The Eve myth sets a bad precedent for women. The fact that God and Jesus are men. The fact that the holiest woman is holy because she was inseminated by God while a virgin. Eve did not give birth to Adam, she was made from his rib. There seems to be a fear of female procreation built into the Bible. It is the men who are the heroes from Noah to Moses to Jesus. I think the instructions as to how women are to treat men and vice versa are also rather sexist, but I am too lazy to search them out.

As far as slavery, the OT makes it seem OK - not godly, but fine - since people are instructed about what is going too far in the punishment of a slave and certainly not told not to have them. The conclusion can be rationally drawn that it is OK to have slaves as long as one shows some restraint in corporal punishment.

Jesus never mentions slavery. So there is nothing to prevent a good Christian from owning slaves or livestock for that matter.

The Bible does reflect the culture it was written in. It's not that we need to leap down their dead throats and see the writers as bad men. But if you want to say the ideas are timeless and good, there is a serious problem, unless you think slavery is OK and women are less than men.

Some slavery quotes SAM, take careful notice of the quote on sexual slaves....

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)


If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)


When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
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Here SAM is an interesting Gay perspective on change in VATican doctrine relating to slavery - as precedent for potential changes in relation to gays..

http://www.indegayforum.org/topics/printer/27105.html
 
Also SAM, the concept of 'The church' is virtually meaningless, especially to an outsider like yourself. A Christian could consider his or her church 'The church' but for anyone outside Christianity or outside of organized Christianity, the concept is meaningless.
 
Doreen said:
Also SAM, the concept of 'The church' is virtually meaningless, especially to an outsider like yourself. A Christian could consider his or her church 'The church' but for anyone outside Christianity or outside of organized Christianity, the concept is meaningless.
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I see a lot of people giving me links to what the church says the scriptures say, but I don't see any links saying where they have reversed their theological positions on what the scriptures say. Which is my question.
 
S.A.M. said:
I see a lot of people giving me links to what the church says the scriptures say, but I don't see any links saying where they have reversed their theological positions on what the scriptures say. Which is my question.
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I believe the link at the end of my last post goes into a few examples of this on issues of slavery and the killing of heretics.
 
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