Killian_1_4
Registered Senior Member
why do talking birds talk? Obviously it isn't communication, and I don't see how imitation can be beneficial to the species, so what do you think?
From a purely biological standpoint...
- Thread starter Killian_1_4
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What makes you say that? I don't think that statement is 'obvious' at all.
Grey parrots have been known to learn (pidgin?) english and communicate with their researchers.
But yes, the "talking" in nature is used as mimicry.
But yes, the "talking" in nature is used as mimicry.
I think what he means is that it is obvious that the birds do not really understand what they're saying. They're more like biological tape recorders. I suppose they probably do associate the phase "polly wants a cracker" with recieving food. But most of what they say is just some sounds they've memorized.
Now their songs in the wild certainly serve as a sort of communication. Mainly as a way of attracting a mate. But your can't carry on a conversation with a parrot.
Oh, that’s different.
I suppose that’s the consensus view (I wouldn’t know, it’s not my field) and the “safe” view. Then again, there are scientists and experiments that suggest that parrot talk is more than simple mimicry.
http://abc.net.au/science/news/stories/2007/1829820.htm
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Not quite true. I suppose this is what the video cited in the next post is about. Alex the African Grey (who unfortunately died recently at the extremely young age of 30) could answer surprisingly intricate questions, like "What color is the square key?" when you're holding a red square key, a blue round key and a yellow fork.
The question, "Why do birds have the rudimentary ability to use language," cannot be answered. Not every trait conferred by evolution is the result of environmental pressure and survival of the fittest. Some of it is random mutation and is waiting for the environment to change and make it either an advantage or a disadvantage. With the shrinking of their natural habitat, the ability of parrots to do things that make them enjoyable companions to humans is a major evolutionary advantage!
One could just as easily ask why humans have the ability to use language, since it's clearly a technology we slowly developed over the millennia rather than a programmed set of sounds like dog barks or grosbeak mating calls. At some point in our history we did not yet talk and the ability lay there dormant, taking up all those brain cells.
Kind of makes ya wonder, what else is sitting there in that 90% of our brains that we don't use, waiting for us to come up with something that connects with those dormant synapses?
Killian_1_4
Registered Senior Member
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3433507052114896375
I kept looking and found this video on GV. Attracting a mate makes the most sense, dunno why I didn't think of it before.
And FraggleRocker, we use our entire brain. The misconception that humans only use 10% of their brain probably comes from the fact that at any given time only 10% of your nuerons are firing, and this was mistaken as meaning only 10% of the brain is used.
I kept looking and found this video on GV. Attracting a mate makes the most sense, dunno why I didn't think of it before.
And FraggleRocker, we use our entire brain. The misconception that humans only use 10% of their brain probably comes from the fact that at any given time only 10% of your nuerons are firing, and this was mistaken as meaning only 10% of the brain is used.
I've heard that it originated because you can damage a huge portion of any particular area of your brain before the effects become overtly noticeable in motor performance dependent upon that area of the brain.
Interesting. I guess that once you have the ability to remember long strings of sounds and repeat them, taking the next step and associating those sounds with certain objects/actions isn't that big a step.
We can certainly make some reasonable guesses. Isn't the theory that songbirds use their ability to produce intracate sounds to attract mates? As I said before, once one has the ability to remember long, complex strings of sounds and to reproduce them; it association certain sounds with certain objects that big of a step?
Every trait is the result of random mutation, then selective pressure is applied to decide which ones stick around.
I think in humans it was the opposite as in birds. While birds evolved the ability to make and remember complex sounds and can, apparently, be taught to associate certain sounds with certain objects; humans evolved a giant brain capable of complex thought before we had the ability to vocalize well.
The same anatomy in modern human's throats that allows us to choke on food allows us much greater control of our vocalizations. Neanderthals did not have this same anatomy. This allowed them to eat more safely. But as they're the ones that went extinct, it would appear that the increased vocal ability outweighed the increased risk of choking.
"...the ability of parrots to do things that make them enjoyable companions to humans is a major evolutionary advantage!"
I was thinking along the same lines, jokingly, but evolution by natural selection would not favor the birds with the vocal box, or complex song capability, if it resulted in their extraction from their environment. And if it appears that artificial selection did select for an advantage, I would hypothesize that artificial selection has nothing to do with it, not only because the birds may not like captivity, they have no idea of where they are going when they are plucked from the environment, but because natural selection already acted on the complex song behavior first. In the environment, complex song behavior has been a driving force in intersexual selection, so the birds captured would exhibit these traits already. Thus birds "talking" is a by product of natural selection by intersexual selection, nor merely artificial selection. However, I do believe that song behavior is used for communication in the wild, among other things as well.
I was thinking along the same lines, jokingly, but evolution by natural selection would not favor the birds with the vocal box, or complex song capability, if it resulted in their extraction from their environment. And if it appears that artificial selection did select for an advantage, I would hypothesize that artificial selection has nothing to do with it, not only because the birds may not like captivity, they have no idea of where they are going when they are plucked from the environment, but because natural selection already acted on the complex song behavior first. In the environment, complex song behavior has been a driving force in intersexual selection, so the birds captured would exhibit these traits already. Thus birds "talking" is a by product of natural selection by intersexual selection, nor merely artificial selection. However, I do believe that song behavior is used for communication in the wild, among other things as well.
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The ability of these birds to mimic must have an evolutionary advantage. Maybe their language abilities are better than we think? I'm sure that question is under research by many different scientists.
"I think a cute movie idea would be about a parrot who is raised by eagles. It would be cute because the parrot can't seem to act like an eagle. After a while, though, to keep the movie from getting boring, maybe put in some pornography. Later, we see the happy parrot flying along, acting like an eagle. He see two parrots below and starts to attack, but it's his parents. Then, some more pornography."
I bet the sparrow looks at the parrot and thinks, yes, you can talk, but LISTEN TO YOURSELF!- Jack Handey
"I think a cute movie idea would be about a parrot who is raised by eagles. It would be cute because the parrot can't seem to act like an eagle. After a while, though, to keep the movie from getting boring, maybe put in some pornography. Later, we see the happy parrot flying along, acting like an eagle. He see two parrots below and starts to attack, but it's his parents. Then, some more pornography."
I bet the sparrow looks at the parrot and thinks, yes, you can talk, but LISTEN TO YOURSELF!- Jack Handey