Certainly there is a difference between the ability to choose and the ability to exercise that choice.
Free Will
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Certainly there is a difference between the ability to choose and the ability to exercise that choice.
Free will is the ability to choose. Independent will would be freedom from influences.
I think it is very well established that no decisions are made free from internal and external influences. Just as it is well established that choices are in fact made.
That ther seems to be 2 thangs or 2 thousand thangs to choose from is jus an illusion of choise... thers a chane of events that will only allow the person to "choose" the nest link in the chane... an if all the conditons are the sam... no mater how often that scenerio is played out... the nest thang the person "chooses" to do will always be the sam thang.!!!
Perhaps instead of simply making blind assertions you would like to actually engage in the discussion??
Please set up a scenerio that demonstrates those 2 conditons.!!!
Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
That ther seems to be 2 thangs or 2 thousand thangs to choose from is jus an illusion of choise... thers a chane of events that will only allow the person to "choose" the nest link in the chane... an if all the conditons are the sam... no mater how often that scenerio is played out... the nest thang the person "chooses" to do will always be the sam thang.!!!
Id be hapy to discuss any queston you mite have about what i said.!!!
That ther seems to be 2 thangs or 2 thousand thangs to choose from is jus an illusion of choise... thers a chane of events that will only allow the person to "choose" the nest link in the chane... an if all the conditons are the sam... no mater how often that scenerio is played out... the nest thang the person "chooses" to do will always be the sam thang.!!!
Id be hapy to discuss any queston you mite have about what i said.!!!
it is worth I think focussing a little on this point.
It seems that the human mind has the capacity to escape oppression into the realm of dreams and fantasy. Exercising choices that are in reality unavailable due to circumstances that I woudl consider in a broad sense to be" oppressive".
The use of the word oppressive is not to be considered overly negative in connotation as all humans no matter how free [freedom] will always suffer the oppression of their conditioning and influences. Such is the nature of a life of sufference [ aka Buddhism]
So therefore humans will then escape into fantasy and dreams [ day dreaming] to facilitate their freewills need to express it self.
For example the occupation of Tibet by the Chinese Government.
Some residents will dream of freedom by plotting or planning accordingly. Whether or not these expressions of free will are actioned or not is another entirely different thing.
Another example woudl be a man paralysed and lying in an iron lung. Oppressed severely by circumstances but is his freewill in any way compromised? Certainly his ability to action it is and certainly his freedom to do so is. Also just because his choices are limited by physical circumstances teh mind is free to go where it chooses so to speak.
So drawing the distinction between freewill and the actioning of free will is worth considering..IMO
I thank mos religions have the beleif that thers such a thang as free-will... but i suspect that not even dreams occur wit-out influence.!!!
of course not, you seem to have missed my point entirely....see posts above for clarification...
So do you thank people have som un-influenced free-will while awake but not all they want/need... an free-will its less oppressed or not oppressed at all while dreamin/day-dreamin.???
try this:
you have a band new Hummer in the garage. top 4wd go any where type vehicle.
It has full ability to do as you want it to but for some reaosn you have lost the keys to the garage and teh Hummer is stuck in side.
Has the Hummer lost it's ability or have just simply lost the ability to action that ability to it's full potential?
maybe you have a large garage and can drive it inside....?
you have a band new Hummer in the garage. top 4wd go any where type vehicle.
It has full ability to do as you want it to but for some reaosn you have lost the keys to the garage and teh Hummer is stuck in side.
Has the Hummer lost it's ability or have just simply lost the ability to action that ability to it's full potential?
maybe you have a large garage and can drive it inside....?
ok... i have lost my ability to acton its full ability.!!!
Now how bout my questons:::
Do you thank people have som un-influenced free-will while awake but not all they want/need... an free-will is less oppressed or not oppressed at all while dreamin/day-dreamin.???
escapism into fantazy and daydreaming, dreams etc are how the free will manages to express itself whilst being oppressed.
Books like the Mills and Boons series for women are a great example of how this manifests.
So obviously the more you oppress someone the more they shall attempt to escape it....by doing what their freewill requires them to do...
aka wars, violence, intolerance, ambitions, etc are all about the fight for free expression of that free will......IMO
you do understand that just because you have lost the ability to action the Hummers ability this in no way degrades the Hummers ability?
see the point?
say you are sent to prison.
You have lost your freedom but certainly not your freewill. [ like the Hummer in a garage.]
You have lost your freedom but certainly not your freewill. [ like the Hummer in a garage.]
Ever sinse i esperienced "lucid-dreamin" about 25 year ago i have realy enjoyed an look forward to dreamin... good bad scary... i love 'em all... but i suspect that dreams have causes jus like anythang else.!!!
What i see in what you described is cause an effect... not "will" free of influence.!!!
you do understand that just because you have lost the ability to action the Hummers ability this in no way degrades the Hummers ability?
see the point?
How does that demonstrate my "free-will"... it jus begs the queston... what are the causes that made me loose my keys.???
let me ask you this:
If the will was not free will how would you know it was being influenced?
the arguemtent is what i call a double bind. It is obvious that we have notions of absolute freewill becasue we also have notions of influence and vica versa.
So the will is free but subject to influence....
This is why we are always no matter who or what we are in state of "oppression". This state would not exist if we did nto have freewill.
If the will was not free will how would you know it was being influenced?
the arguemtent is what i call a double bind. It is obvious that we have notions of absolute freewill becasue we also have notions of influence and vica versa.
So the will is free but subject to influence....
This is why we are always no matter who or what we are in state of "oppression". This state would not exist if we did nto have freewill.
so we have trouble managing our free will....this is not surprising ha...
the causes were some form of oppression....
No i dont see the connecton.!!!
Do you thank that everthang hapens for reasons... or that somtimes thangs hapen for no reason.???
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