free will sin and haven

scorpius

scorpius

a realist
Valued Senior Member
as the story goes...religious people say god gave man free will because he didnt want bunch of mindless robots and as a result SIN entered the world.
I have two questions;

is there sin in haven?
my guess would be no,otherwise it wouldnt be haven,right.
also
will you have Free will in haven?
Im sure you will, otherwise youd be just a mindless robot,right?

so my question is...why couldnt god create people with free will and unable to sin in the first place???
 
THERE is no reason to believe we live on in heaven....

only that the memories of our lives are collected and remembered by GOD.

thats it.

if we lived on.... and had free will to act in heaven... then what would be the point of making the universe in the first place?

-MT
 
if we had free will in heaven, we would also have the free will to sin, so it would not be heaven.

free will and the inability to sin don't work together. free will (consciusness of oneself) made us sinful. the only way to be truly free [of sin] is to do the will of god by your own free will.
 
People => god => free will => sin => heaven => hell

"One of these things is not like the others..." -Sesame Street
 
againstfreewill2lu.gif
 
scorpius said:
... so my question is...why couldnt god create people with free will and unable to sin in the first place???
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Because we will be super stupid then. God created a man in his own image or should I said likeness. We will be like God when the time comes.
 
c7ityi_ said:
if we had free will in heaven, we would also have the free will to sin, so it would not be heaven.

free will and the inability to sin don't work together. free will (consciusness of oneself) made us sinful. the only way to be truly free [of sin] is to do the will of god by your own free will.
Click to expand...
hold on a sec,..

isnt god supposed to be able to do ANYTHING??

so couldnt he create men with free will and unable to sin?

if not then He is not allmighty and cant do everything.

or he doesnt exist
 
do you think then that god has all the ropes in his hands? im more likely to believe that we create our own life, through our gray days, with consequenses to our OWN actions, good or bad. that god controlles every mans life is to me not logic...... but that is my opinion, and my opinion helps ME to be who i want to be, doesnt mean that that has to be so for you.

does nobody see that this thread takes heaven for granted? as a sure thing that is there? i dont know, i think that heaven and hell are to each person different, according to how he lived his life, and the kind of person that he is, that means what he understands under heaven and hell.

i have the feeling that you should give a definition of what you mean exactly when you start a conversation like this. of what kind of heaven are you talking? a christian one? an ultimate state of beeing? ; because then you wont have "sins" because you are in the ultimate state of perfectness...
what do you mean with sin? breaking the devine rules? braking sicietal rules? braking personal moral rules?
 
scorpius said:
as the story goes...religious people say god gave man free will because he didnt want bunch of mindless robots and as a result SIN entered the world.
I have two questions;

is there sin in haven?
my guess would be no,otherwise it wouldnt be haven,right.
also
will you have Free will in haven?
Im sure you will, otherwise youd be just a mindless robot,right?

so my question is...why couldnt god create people with free will and unable to sin in the first place???
Click to expand...
So - basically we're all running round on Earth, with our free-will, sinning or not sinning as the mood takes us.

And then God says - everyone who behaves in a certain way that I have described is able to get into Heaven.

So Heaven is now full of people behaving in the same way... in the same robotic way.

Why didn't God just put people in Heaven to begin with, acting the same robotic way?

Why create Earth, and the humans, only to allow those into Heaven that he deems worthy - when he could have created them straight away and put them in heaven?

Sounds like a very cruel God, playing a very cruel game.
 
one thing, i hope i wont have to spend time in that heaven of yours :S i will bore myself to death, but i will be dead allready, where do i have to go then? hell? or maybe death will be the only escape out of that horrible place to get back to my lovely earth again.

so conclusion; heaven better not be like you describe it, or ILL KICK SOME HEAVENS ASS
:D :D
 
scorpius said:
isnt god supposed to be able to do ANYTHING??

so couldnt he create men with free will and unable to sin?
Click to expand...

omnipotence doesn't mean that you can do illogical things like "triangular circles".
 
is there such a thing as free will? i mean our mind is nothing more then a combination of atoms and chemicals. chemical triggers activate impulses are sent decisions are made none of these things (atoms chemicals) act randomly. Our decisions seem to be under our control but in reality controlled by what enviroment we grew up in combined with the chemical make of the brain. none of this is random or free of inputs that we cant control.

example: the horny teen male he cant help that he is horny, the horomnes have taken control. Nazi's didnt have a satan gene, if you grow up in iran what is the likely hood you will grow up atheist? etc..... i think my point is clear by now.

Now unless you believe in souls or something that is outside the controls of physics and chemistry that inputs on how you act i think it would illogical to think that beings have free will. there are just seemingly infinite factors that add up to our decisions so it appears as if we made that decision our selves.
 
omnipotence doesn't mean that you can do illogical things like "triangular circles".
Click to expand...

Actually it does. It's "all powerful", not "all powerful.. except for.."
 
c7ityi_ said:
omnipotence doesn't mean that you can do illogical things like "triangular circles".
Click to expand...
theres nothing illogical about being without sin and having free will imo,
most people are UNABLE to kill or torture others or having sex with animals for example,or people of same sex..do they have free will?
sure they do..and they are UNABLE to sin in those ways...
so why couldnt god create everyone perfect IF hes supposed to be perfect himself?
 
scorpius said:
most people are UNABLE to kill or torture others or having sex with animals for example,or people of same sex..do they have free will?
sure they do..and they are UNABLE to sin in those ways...
Click to expand...

IN THOSE SPECIFIC WAYS, yes.

but if you were unable to sin in every way, you could not exist anymore. you would have no ego. you would be conscious of everything, so you would be unconscious, nothing!

so why couldnt god create everyone perfect IF hes supposed to be perfect himself?
Click to expand...

because of logical restrictions in "matter". if the restrictions did not exist, nothing could exist.

we don't WANT to be perfect, we want to be limited, because that way we can be conscious of a specific body (small part of our infinite self)
 
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