Fluoride in water - can it damage the Thyroid

K

Kittamaru

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums.
Valued Senior Member
Fluoride Was Once Prescribed as an Anti-Thyroid Drug
When people think of fluoride being prescribed for medicinal purposes, they generally think of fluoride supplementation to reduce tooth decay. Fluoride, however, has also been prescribed as a drug to reduce the activity of the thyroid gland. Up through the 1950s, doctors in Europe and South America prescribed fluoride to reduce thyroid function in patients with over-active thyroids (hyperthyroidism). (Merck Index 1968). Doctors selected fluoride as a thyroid suppressant based on findings linking fluoride to goitre, and, as predicted, fluoride therapy did reduce thyroid activity in the treated patients. (McClaren 1969; Galletti 1958; May 1937). Moreover, according to clinical research, the fluoride dose capable of reducing thyroid function was notably low – just 2 to 5 mg per day over several months. (Galletti & Joyet 1958). This dose is well within the range (1.6 to 6.6 mg/day) of what individuals living in fluoridated communities are now estimated to receive on a regular basis. (DHHS 1991).
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http://fluoridealert.org/issues/health/thyroid/

Now, before you ream me for the source of the article... yes, I know - it's an anti-fluoride website. That's part of why I'm asking - does anyone with a bio-chem or bio-med background have the knowledge of how the body works with fluoride and how it absorbs it from various sources?

What about brushing your teeth? Wouldn't that have a higher concentration of fluoride than fluoridated water?

The article above was used as a source in an article I stumbled across on Facebook (yeah yeah, I know)

http://themindunleashed.org/2014/02/9-shocking-dangers-fluoride-exposure.html

I have to say... honestly, I'm not sure why putting fluoride in water supplies seems like such a good idea to begin with - its effect on tooth health would seem to be minimal, compared to even halfway decent dental hygiene...?
 
Kittamaru said:
... honestly, I'm not sure why putting fluoride in water supplies seems like such a good idea to begin with - its effect on tooth health would seem to be minimal, compared to even halfway decent dental hygiene...?
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I can comment on that, so will:

The tips of my two incisor teeth are chalk white, as I was born in Littlerock Arkansas where the natural fluoride in the water in the suburb where my father/mother lived is high. I'm not sure how long I lived there, but at least a year so my growing bones took up fluoride and when my first to form teeth (top incisors) were developing the bone's fluoride over dosed them badly. The advantage of a lower dose was despite poor dental hygiene habits, I never had a cavity until I got "wisdom teeth." A bad side effect is that my earlier teeth are hard and thus brittle - several have needed repair of chipped corner - some I did not repair. Also teeth must grow some as some of the earlier molars have deep fissures in the midline of their sides. In my late teens I fell victim to a dentist who put tiny specks of mercury amalgam filling in these voids - I think he was paying for his new large boat.

One main reason why that Fluoride was discovered to reduce carries was that some dental association published data on the number of dentist in US location per capita living there. It showed parts of Arkansas were way below average. So newly graduated dentist went there, opened their office and went bankrupt. Then the dental association did some studies to learn why. Those low dentist/ 1000 areas had high levels of Fluoride in their water.
 
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Maybe I'm an exception. My hometown started fluoridating water about the time I was born, 60 years ago. I have never had a cavity, my kidneys and thyroid are just fine. (I know because I just went to my doctor for my yearly, and they did extensive blood work.)
 
Which is why I'm asking - are its benefits worth it? Are there any benefits if the person in question already has proper dental hygiene?
 
honestly, I'm not sure why putting fluoride in water supplies seems like such a good idea to begin with - its effect on tooth health would seem to be minimal
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Not really. Its effects on tooth health in children, and through them the lifelong overall wellbeing of adults, are significant.

This is an example of a perceptual problem that plagues human governance in general: when a problem is well handled by some innovation that needs upkeep, the cost of that upkeep will eventually come to seem unnecessary - since there is no visible problem. When the neighbor kids are not dying from whooping cough, the expense and risks of the vaccination don't look worthwhile. When debilitating toothaches, abcesses, and mouths featuring missing and rotten teeth, are not one's common experience, the means by which that formerly common regional affliction has been prevented do not look cost effective.
 
iceaura - that's sort of my question - isn't there already plenty of fluoride in toothpaste and dental treatments? Also, isn't that why there is fluoride free toothpaste and mouthwash for kids (because a small dose can be harmful to them if swallowed?)
 
*nods* Indeed - at what level does Fluoride stop being beneficial, and at what level does it become harmful?

Case in point - if a 7 year old brushes his teeth with fluoridated toothpaste, uses a fluoride mouthwash, and drinks 8 8oz glasses of fluoride-added water a day... is he getting too much?
 
kittamaru said:
iceaura - that's sort of my question - isn't there already plenty of fluoride in toothpaste and dental treatments?
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So what percentage of kids in low flouride water areas get dental treatments and brush their teeth every day with toothpaste, let alone swallow enough of the toothpaste to get dietary flouride? Or drink 8 glasses of flouridated water a day?

I wouldn't give a child flouride mouthwash, or any other mouthwash actually, and I wouldn't have them using flouride toothpaste if they were drinking flouridated water and swallowing any toothpaste they did use, but this is a minority of children and they would still be well under the natural flouride levels in many areas - which don't seem to do harm.

It's a concern, sure, but excessive flouride in mouthwashes and stuff like that is pretty easy to avoid and kind of expensive to provide, meanwhile there are all these kids who live in low-flouride regions who are getting almost all their dietary flouride from tap water - and have been for generations. And they need it. Like iodized salt.
 
That's why I'm asking :)

I'm also curious... what is the amount of fluoride added to city water compared to what exists in normal well-water?

EDIT - TO be clear - I'm not saying adding Fluoride is bad - I'm just curious about it because I don't know much...and when I try to research on the internet, I get a lot of hard-line opinions (it's ebil or it's super good, very little in between)
 
Kittamaru said:
EDIT - TO be clear - I'm not saying adding Fluoride is bad - I'm just curious about it because I don't know much...and when I try to research on the internet, I get a lot of hard-line opinions (it's ebil or it's super good, very little in between)
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Don't be afraid to condemn Fluoride. I know how much intimidation those who oppose fluoride in water or fluoride in toothpaste people get.

Here is a Harvard study linking lower children IQ to fluoride in water: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/08/07/effects-of-fluoride-to-children.aspx

1. Fluoride exposure disrupts the synthesis of collagen and leads to the breakdown of collagen in bone, tendon, muscle, skin, cartilage, lungs, kidney and trachea.

A.K. Susheela and Mohan Jha, " Effects of Fluoride on Cortical and Cancellous Bone Composition," IRCS Medical Sciences: Library Compendium, Vol. 9, No.11, pp. 1021-1022 (1981); Y. D. Sharma, " Effect of Sodium Fluoride on Collagen Cross-Link Precursors," Toxicological Letters, Vol. 10, pp. 97-100 (1982); A. K. Susheela and D. Mukerjee, " Fluoride poisoning and the Effect of Collagen Biosynthesis of Osseous and Nonosseous Tissue," Toxicological European Research, Vol. 3, No.2, pp. 99-104 (1981); Y.D. Sharma, " Variations in the Metabolism and Maturation of Collagen after Fluoride Ingestion," Biochemica et Biophysica Acta, Vol. 715, pp. 137-141 (1982); Marian Drozdz et al., " Studies on the Influence of Fluoride Compounds upon Connective Tissue Metabolism in Growing Rats" and "Effect of Sodium Fluoride With and Without Simultaneous Exposure to Hydrogen Fluoride on Collagen Metabolism," Journal of Toxicological Medicine, Vol. 4, pp. 151-157 (1984).

2. Fluoride stimulates granule formation and oxygen consumption in white blood cells, but inhibits these processes when the white blood cell is challenged by a foreign agent in the blood.

Robert A. Clark, " Neutrophil Iodintion Reaction Induced by Fluoride: Implications for Degranulation and Metabolic Activation," Blood, Vol. 57, pp. 913-921 (1981).

3. Fluoride depletes the energy reserves and the ability of white blood cells to properly destroy foreign agents by the process of phagocytosis. As little as 0.2 ppm fluoride stimulates superoxide production in resting white blood cells, virtually abolishing phagocytosis. Even micro-molar amounts of fluoride, below 1 ppm, may seriously depress the ability of white blood cells to destroy pathogenic agents.

John Curnette, et al, " Fluoride-mediated Activation of the Respiratory Burst in Human Neutrophils," Journal of Clinical Investigation, Vol. 63, pp. 637-647 (1979); W. L. Gabler and P. A. Leong, ., " Fluoride Inhibition of Polymorphonumclear Leukocytes," Journal of Dental Research, Vol. 48, No. 9, pp. 1933-1939 (1979); W. L. Gabler, et al., " Effect of Fluoride on the Kinetics of Superoxide Generation by Fluoride," Journal of Dental Research, Vol. 64, p. 281 (1985); A. S. Kozlyuk, et al., " Immune Status of Children in Chemically Contaminated Environments," Zdravookhranenie, Issue 3, pp. 6-9 (1987)

4. Fluoride confuses the immune system and causes it to attack the body's own tissues, and increases the tumor growth rate in cancer prone individuals.

Alfred Taylor and Nell C. Taylor, " Effect of Sodium Fluoride on Tumor Growth," Proceedings of the Society for Experimental Biology and Medicine, Vol. 119, p. 252 (1965); Shiela Gibson, " Effects of Fluoride on Immune System Function," Complementary Medical Research, Vol. 6, pp. 111-113 (1992); Peter Wilkinson, " Inhibition of the Immune System With Low Levels of Fluorides," Testimony before the Scottish High Court in Edinburgh in the Case of McColl vs. Strathclyde Regional Council, pp. 17723-18150, 19328-19492, and Exhibit 636, (1982); D. W. Allman and M. Benac, " Effect of Inorganic Fluoride Salts on Urine and Cyclic AMP Concentration in Vivo," Journal of Dental Research, Vol. 55 (Supplement B), p. 523 (1976); S. Jaouni and D. W. Allman, "Effect of Sodium Fluoride and Aluminum on Adenylate Cyclase and Phosphodiesterase Activity," Journal of Dental Research, Vol. 64, p. 201 (1985)

5. Fluoride inhibits antibody formation in the blood.

S. K. Jain and A. K. Susheela, " Effect of Sodium Fluoride on Antibody Formation in Rabbits," Environmental Research, Vol. 44, pp. 117-125 (1987)

6. Fluoride depresses thyroid activity.

Viktor Gorlitzer Von Mundy, " Influence of Fluorine and Iodine on the Metabolism, Particularly on the Thyroid Gland," Muenchener Medicische Wochenschrift, Vol. 105, pp. 182-186 (1963); A. Benagiano, "The Effect of Sodium Fluoride on Thyroid Enzymes and Basal Metabolism in the Rat," Annali Di Stomatologia, Vol. 14, pp. 601-619 (1965); Donald Hillman, et al., " Hypothyroidism and Anemia Related to Fluoride in Dairy Cattle," Journal of Dairy Science, Vol. 62, No.3, pp. .416-423 (1979); V. Stole and J. Podoba, "Effect of Fluoride on the Biogenesis of Thyroid Hormones," Nature, Vol. 188, No. 4753, pp. 855-856 (1960); Pierre Galleti and Gustave Joyet, " Effect of Fluorine on Thyroid Iodine Metabolism and Hyperthyroidism," Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, Vol. 18, pp. 1102-1110 (1958)

7. Fluorides have a disruptive effect on various tissues in the body.

T. Takamorim " The Heart Changes in Growing Albino Rats Fed on Varied Contents of Fluorine," The Toxicology of Fluorine Symposium, Bern, Switzerland, Oct 1962, pp. 125-129; Vilber A. O. Bello and Hillel J. Gitelman, " High Fluoride Exposure in Hemodialysis Patients," American Journal of Kidney Diseases, Vol. 15, pp. 320-324 (1990); Y. Yoshisa, "Experimental Studies on Chronic Fluorine Poisoning," Japanese Journal of Industrial Health, Vol. 1, pp. 683-690 (1959)

8. Fluoride promotes development of bone cancer.

J.K. Mauer, et al., " Two-Year Cacinogenicity Study Of Sodium Fluoride In Rats," Journal of the National Cancer Institute, Vol. 82, pp. 1118-1126 (1990); Proctor and Gamble "Carcinogenicity Studies with Sodium Fluoride in Rats" National Institute of Environmenrtal Health Sciences Presentation, July 27, 1985; S. E. Hrudley et al., " Drinking Water Fluoridation and Osteosarcoma," Canadian Journal of Public Health, Vol. 81, pp. 415-416 (1990); P. D. Cohn, " A Brief Report on the Association of Drinking Water Fluoridation and Incidence of Osteosarcoma in Young Males," New Jersey Department of Health, Trenton, New Jersey, Nov. 1992; M. C. Mahoney et al., " Bone Cancer Incidence Rates in New York," American Journal of Public Health, Vol. 81, pp. 81, 475 (1991); Irwin Herskowitz and Isabel Norton, " Increased Incidence of Melanotic Tumors Following Treatment with Sodium Fluoride," Genetics Vol. 48, pp. 307-310 (1963); J. A. Disney, et al., " A Case Study in Testing the Conventional Wisdom: School Based Fluoride Mouth Rinse Programs in the USA," Community Dentistry and Oral Epidemiology, Vol. 18, pp. 46-56 (1990); D. J. Newell, " Fluoridation of Water Supplies and Cancer - An Association?," Applied Statistics, Vol. 26, No. 2, pp. 125-135 (1977)

9. Fluorides cause premature aging of the human body.

Nicholas Leone, et al., " Medical Aspects of Excessive Fluoride in a Water Supply," Public Health Reports, Vol. 69, pp. 925-936 (1954); J. David Erikson, " Mortality of Selected Cities with Fluoridated and Non-Fluoridated Water Supplies," New England Journal of Medicine, Vol. 298, pp. 1112-1116 (1978); " The Village Where People Are Old Before Their Time," Stern Magazine, Vol. 30, pp. 107-108, 111-112 (1978)

10. Fluoride ingestion from mouth rinses and dentifrices in children is extremely hazardous to biological development, life span and general health.

Yngve Ericsson and Britta Forsman, " Fluoride Retained From Mouth Rinses and Dentifrices In Preschool Children," Caries Research, Vol. 3, pp. 290-299 (1969); W. L. Augenstein, et al., " Fluoride Ingestion In Children: A Review Of 87 Cases," Pediatrics, Vol. 88, pp. 907-912, (1991); Charles Wax, "Field Investigation Report," State of Maryland Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, March 19, 1980, 67 pages; George Waldbott, " Mass Intoxication from Over-Fluoridation in Drinking Water," Clinical Toxicology, Vol. 18, No.5, pp. 531-541 (1981)
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Kittamaru said:
http://fluoridealert.org/issues/health/thyroid/

Now, before you ream me for the source of the article... yes, I know - it's an anti-fluoride website. That's part of why I'm asking - does anyone with a bio-chem or bio-med background have the knowledge of how the body works with fluoride and how it absorbs it from various sources?

What about brushing your teeth? Wouldn't that have a higher concentration of fluoride than fluoridated water?

The article above was used as a source in an article I stumbled across on Facebook (yeah yeah, I know)

http://themindunleashed.org/2014/02/9-shocking-dangers-fluoride-exposure.html

I have to say... honestly, I'm not sure why putting fluoride in water supplies seems like such a good idea to begin with - its effect on tooth health would seem to be minimal, compared to even halfway decent dental hygiene...?
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The original paper is here:
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/8114790/galletti-joyet-1958-fluoride-action-network

The abstract says that if people have hyper-thyroidism, then doses of fluoride not much different to that added to tap water,
will have a beneficial effect, provided that the amount of iodide in the diet is low.

If there isn't enough iodine in the diet, it wouldn't surprise me if the body tried to use fluorine. That seems to be the conclusion of this old paper.
Deficiency in iodine is still a problem worldwide.
And a bigger problem than tooth decay.
I wonder why they don't add some iodine to the water as well.
 
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1638306/

Abstract said:
Iodine is an effective, simple, and cost-efficient means of water disinfection for people who vacation, travel, or work in areas where municipal water treatment is not reliable. However, there is considerable controversy about the maximum safe iodine dose and duration of use when iodine is ingested in excess of the recommended daily dietary amount. The major health effect of concern with excess iodine ingestion is thyroid disorders, primarily hypothyroidism with or without iodine-induced goiter. A review of the human trials on the safety of iodine ingestion indicates that neither the maximum recommended dietary dose (2 mg/day) nor the maximum recommended duration of use (3 weeks) has a firm basis. Rather than a clear threshold response level or a linear and temporal dose-response relationship between iodine intake and thyroid function, there appears to be marked individual sensitivity, often resulting from unmasking of underlying thyroid disease. The use of iodine for water disinfection requires a risk-benefit decision based on iodine's benefit as a disinfectant and the changes it induces in thyroid physiology. By using appropriate disinfection techniques and monitoring thyroid function, most people can use iodine for water treatment over a prolonged period of time.
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That isn't an outright condemnation of the possibility of adding iodide to water.
Excess intake of fluorine and chlorine are also potentially harmful.
Water is local.
Iodide could be added only in areas where there is a natural deficiency.
If you are deficient in Iodine, both Chlorine and Fluorine might well be acting physiologically.
Why not add the third halogen? Belt and Braces.
 
My son is a water operator, I'll ask him what this area's water is like and what they add. He isn't a distribution operator, but he'll know more than I do.

Or at worst, he can ask the State lab guys next time they're out for samples.
 
Dr_Toad said:
My son is a water operator, I'll ask him what this area's water is like and what they add. He isn't a distribution operator, but he'll know more than I do.

Or at worst, he can ask the State lab guys next time they're out for samples.
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That would be exceptional Dr_Toad! Thank you!
 
It is odd that they add fluoride.
To protect teeth.
Why are they so interested in people's teeth?
It's the most replaceable body part.
If they rot you can get false ones.

Iodine deficiency would seem to me to be far more important than adding fluoride for teeth.

This has been posted on sf many times. The Goitre Belt.

goiter_belt.jpg
 
I'm also curious... what is the amount of fluoride added to city water compared to what exists in normal well-water?
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That depends on where you live. The flouride in the US is added to bring it up to certain level - some places add none, having naturally flouridated water.

The problem is not fluoride, it is lack of iodine.
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Those are two problems.
 
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