Faulty idea of Nice War

extrasense

Registered Senior Member
To make a War nice, is as idiotic as Marxism.

What it does, it simply prolonges conflicts, makes them more complicated and more intractable.

In history, the War used to clean up the air, now it simply spreads filth.

The more sufferings the War brings, the shorter the conflict, and the less incentive to start an another war.

Can we learn anything?

ES
 
"Can we learn anything?"
Absolutely. We can learn not to make nonsensical comparisons (war & Marxism) and not to repeat the failed strategies of history (Total War).
 
hypewaders said:
"Can we learn anything?"
not to repeat the failed strategies of history (Total War).

The whole point is that we have to use successful srategies of history.

Alexander the great has won over half of the world not by waging nice war.

He has destroyed every city that resisted him, and killed or sold for slavery everyone of its occupants.

ES
 
...and today would be a war criminal. We're learning: War is not a glorious adventure, and in an economically-integrating world, nobody wins.
 
failed strategies of history (Total War)

cato: "someone tell militant Islam"

Muslim militants are not engaging in Total War, in part because they lack the necessary political base.
 
hypewaders said:
...and today would be a war criminal. We're learning: War is not a glorious adventure, and in an economically-integrating world, nobody wins.

War criminal? What a stupid idea!
In a War, everything must be permitted, for the result is greater good.
Lawyers in the military units are the enemy within.

Nobody wins? What about IIWW?

Get real.

ES
 
"Nobody wins? What about IIWW?

We were not a global economy then. Fracture the contemporary balance, and the affluent USA (for example) will be rapidly unsustainable. The legal and ethical limitations on international conflict that you so disdain are a key factor in the present balance.
 
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Muslim militants are not engaging in Total War, in part because they lack the necessary political base.
you are right. I just meant that they don't fight with the established "chivalrous" method of military-vs-military. rather, they employ any method to achieve their goals.
 
Within the American failure to come to grips with this is the failure to understand why military invasions are a counterproductive response to terrorism, providing political legitimacy to thugs who lack it: Silly General, terrorists are for cops.
 
hypewaders said:
"Nobody wins? What about IIWW?
We were not a global economy then. Fracture the contemporary balance, and the affluent USA (for example) will be rapidly unsustainable. The legal and ethical limitations on international conflict that you so disdain are a key factor in the present balance.
This is a lie, or an expression of ignorance.
What "affluent USA"?
So the terrorists are contributing to the world?
Using army as sanitary workers is good way to use billions spend while creating it?

Kill as many enemies as fast as you can, is the only sensible way to fight the war.

ES
 
hypewaders said:
Within the American failure to come to grips with this is the failure to understand why military invasions are a counterproductive response to terrorism, providing political legitimacy to thugs who lack it.
The problem is not military invasions, you are still wrong.
When you do military invasion, what do you do?
The correct answer is: you kill all and anybody who resist or can resist in the future. You destroy the infrastructure that might support, encourage or inspire resistance - all enemy religious and political institutions.

ES
 
hypewaders said:
...and today would be a war criminal. We're learning: War is not a glorious adventure, and in an economically-integrating world, nobody wins.
You're right. War isn't a glorious adventure. There is neither dignity nor honor to be found in battle. So why the feeble attempts to wage "humane" war? They are only a form of hesitation, and they only work to ensure defeat.

The only rule of war is to do what is necessary. If the torture of prisoners and the killing of civilians will quicken victory, then not only should it be encouraged, it is the responbility of a commander to order it. To not do whatever is possible to bring about a swift end to the conflict is to sacrifice your own men for the sake of the enemy, and that is downright despicable.
 
Why would anybody be your friend, if you are kinder to your sworn enemies than to your own people and troops?
 
baumgarten said:
The only rule of war is to do what is necessary. If the torture of prisoners and the killing of civilians will quicken victory, then not only should it be encouraged, it is the responbility of a commander to order it. To not do whatever is possible to bring about a swift end to the conflict is to sacrifice your own men for the sake of the enemy, and that is downright despicable.

Furthermore, dissident civilians need to be shut the fuck up, the press corp incarcerated, goods rationed, and all non-war-essential jobs shut down. The whole economy ought to be mobilized to production of military equipment and a draft instituted. And get rid of voting.
 
At the risk of being repetitive, I'll reiterate that we have left behind the age of conquest, and entered an era of limited, contained war. Now the rules have changed because of economic integration. Consider the United States, or Israel as examples.

If either of these unleashed their entire military force upon any present real or perceived enemies, the results would not favor the aggressor. This has nothing to do with who is macho or warriorlike, or compassionate or pacifistic. This has to do with the realities of possessing more destructive force than moral clout: Throw everything ruthlessly at the enemy, lay waste to everything and every one, and...

You lose.

Even the mighty USA can quickly implode if our global partners disassociate. Launching Total War is officially "out". We don't really know what's "in", but warfare must be limited and lawful so that the international order that all industrialized nations depend upon can be perpetuated.

Israel's present assault on Lebanon is not Total War, but it is close enough that the long-term results will bring Israel great harm. I won't go into hypotheticals, but if you think about it you may understand.

I am not offering you pollyanish, idealistic talk of world peace. I am describing an established pragmatic modern convention of warfare that is manifest in today's events, but that the depictions of Hollywood and major media are lagging far behind.

I'll try a silly analogy (which I usually wind up regretting): If it became commonplace for everyone to go into bars with grenades in their pockets, then the "rules" of barfights would change. Certain drunkards might bellow "I'll fuck y'all up cuz this is a TOTAL BARFIGHT". But before or after he might leap over the bar and pull the pin, the grenade-brandishing drunkard loses in his dispute, because bars obviously could not operate under those circumstances, and bargoers of every ilk would be rather intolerant about the excessive introduction of violence.

Developed nations are all acquiring planetary grenades, and it is discouraging the same old brawls. Even absent the nuclear option, limited warfare is the result of the reality that economies are globalized. No matter how offended or angry Americans might become toward Iraq or Syria or Iran or Sweden, we can't cut lose with all we've got and keep our economic Club Member's Credit Card. And in the moment we lose that, we're on the street. That's why Total War is now and evermore unthinkable for any sizeable nation to initiate.

Now, if you are strictly talking about a rogue nation doing it anyway (the idiot in the bar with a grenade) then the answer is obvious in terms of the response from the rest of the world. But all propaganda to the contrary, there really isn't much cause to worry about that.

If one of you Total War proponents would like to explore a specific example, such as why Israel should lay complete waste to Lebanon, or the USA should obliterate Iraq, then (as they say in some bars) "let's go, motherfucker".
 
hypewaders said:
Throw everything ruthlessly at the enemy...You lose. .
No, you win by killing your enemies.
You do not have a clue.
You do not understand what "Total war" means, by the way.

Get educated a bit. The truth will prove to be truth.
Unless you desided to kill ypur enemies, do not go to war.
If you go to war, exterminate them without mercy.
This is all that there is to it.

ES
 
Roman said:
Furthermore, dissident civilians need to be shut the fuck up, the press corp incarcerated, goods rationed, and all non-war-essential jobs shut down. The whole economy ought to be mobilized to production of military equipment and a draft instituted. And get rid of voting.

You do not get the difference between press corp and traitors - or rather you pretend you do not.

Traitors, wheather they are press or not, should be executed by firing squad, and it is right way to go.

ES
 
extrasense:"You do not understand what "Total war" means"

Please explain to me your understanding of the term "total war".
 
Roman said:
Furthermore, dissident civilians need to be shut the fuck up, the press corp incarcerated, goods rationed, and all non-war-essential jobs shut down. The whole economy ought to be mobilized to production of military equipment and a draft instituted. And get rid of voting.
Damn straight. I tell ya, if I was in charge...

Seriously though, politicians and citizens have different responsibilities from soldiers and generals during a war. It definitely is the military's job to end the war as quickly as possible. It's the government's job to protect the people, so it's all a moot point if the military preys on the people of the country it's supposed to be defending. I really see no reason to show the enemy any sympathy or humanity, however.
 
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