Family of dead armed robber attempting to sue, pushing for stricter gun control laws

Kittamaru

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums.
Valued Senior Member
http://gunssavelives.net/blog/famil...der-who-shot-him-calls-for-stricter-gun-laws/

The family of an armed robber is speaking out after surveillance video was released of their family member committing an armed robbery.
On the video Dante Williams is clearly seen entering a South Carolina Waffle House, pointing a gun at employees and customers and attempting to rob the restaurant.
Justin Harrison was eating at the bar. Harrison, a concealed carry permit holder, was armed. He waited for an opportunity, shot Williams, and attempted to detain the second suspect.
McSwain said her family was disappointed that Harrison wasn’t charged in the shooting and says her family is still considering pursuing other legal action against him.

http://www.goupstate.com/article/20120513/ARTICLES/205131026

Justin Harrison usually left his gun in his pickup truck after getting off his night-shift job as a welder.
“I normally keep it in my glove compartment,” said the slight, soft-spoken 23-year-old.
But on Jan. 21, Harrison, a concealed weapons permit holder from Boiling Springs, holstered his .45-caliber Glock on his left side and went into the Chesnee Highway Waffle House for an early morning meal.
He sat at the bar, in the second seat from the register, for only a couple of minutes before he says Dante Lamont Williams, 19, of Roebuck, and Kenneth Jowan Craig, 29, of Spartanburg, came in. Craig carried a black plastic bag. Williams had a gun.
“They said, ‘You know what time it is. Everyone get down. If you move, we'll kill you,' ” Harrison said. “They were cocky, brazen.”
Harrison had no intention of getting involved. He sat still and looked straight ahead.
“I wasn't trying to mess with anybody,” Harrison said. “Out of the corner of my eye, I see a gun and thought, ‘This just got serious.' ”

So... let me get this straight... these two punk ass thugs walk into the waffle house with a firearm, tell the people there that they WILL kill them if they move, and then get punked by an armed citizen. Now, the family of the dead thug wants to sue AND fight to change the laws? What is this... lets take the guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens so my badass daddy/son/cousin/nephew/husband/et al can rob you safely?
 
*sighs*

This wouldn't be the first time that cases similar to this have happened. I again find myself understanding why the rest of the modern developed nations laugh at the United States and it's laughable system of law & order and litigation.Then again, the prevalence of guns and obsession with guns in the US's culture doesn't help. So i guess the robbers who were shot would have been stabbed or bludgeoned instead if guns weren't part of the equation? Which wouldn't detract from the fact that they still would be suing..even though they are the ones who committed the real crimes in the first place.


In this case the injured robber sues the man for firing back.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/burglar-sues-calif-homeowner-90-who-returned-fire/

In this case a politician injuries themselves while breaking into the person's home and sues.
http://consumerist.com/2011/01/29/politician-breaks-into-home-sues-owners-for-injuries/

In this case the robber sues for being shot by the home owner.
http://www.wisn.com/Accused-Burglar-Sues-Homeowner-Who-Shot-Him/8033366

:facepalm:
 
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No News, or, Who Sued the Dog?

There really isn't much new about this. When I was about 12, a story emerged regarding a lawsuit filed against a family after a burglar tripped on a toy one of the kids left on the stairs, and broke his back.

There was a lawsuit sometime in the last twenty-five years wherein a suicidal jumped onto the tracks in the New York subway, failed to die, and then sued the city for his injuries.

We had a case in the Seattle area, in the late '90s, when police officers tried to sue the estate of a bank robber. Their tort claim? As they closed in on his hideout, the robber killed himself, thus causing the officers emotional harm by denying them an arrest.

There is a reason for the plethora of brutal jokes about killing lawyers.
 
It's irrelevant whether it's new; the OP is asking for a mechanism to rid ourselves of it. I sympathize with your brand of humour here, but I don't recall any posted seasons on lawyers.
 
To be fair... I dont' know what CAN be done about it, short of a bit of good old fashioned wild-west justice... go round up all the corrupt lawyers and bureaucrats and what not that let this kind of shit happen and toss em into the fires of Mount Doom or something...
 
heh, if only that were true... if only...
if only... (this one is REALLY crazy... sued for LOOKING like someone? - at least this one was ultimately dropped)
if only..
if only

yeah... we're screwed in terms of our legal system lol
Umm not for all of those, sorry.

The Amtrak case especially. There should have been warning signs posted to advise anyone who came near them that there was live electrical wires that could electrocute people because those wires clearly posed a threat to the lives of anyone who came near them. Had it been two employees who were electrocuted, would your reasoning be the same?

You are traveling down a dangerous road here by complaining about some of these cases you linked. Some would be deemed valid and others not.

It's cases such as the ones you linked and the one in the OP that is the reason that tort reform is needed.

As for the OP, the family's case is or would be a non-starter. For one thing, he was committing an armed robbery in a public restaurant, in a State where people are allowed to carry concealed weapons, so it is not unexpected that someone in that restaurant could be armed and able to defend themselves. Secondly, there was a direct threat to the people in that eatery, so Harrison has every reason and justification to defend himself in the face of a deadly threat, especially against someone coming towards him with a gun. To use the vernacular that is so popular in the US media of late, he stood his ground in shooting the armed robber who directly threatened his life and that of those around him.
 
My thought on the Amtrak one is simple - they had no business being there... it'd be like a bunch of teenagers breaking into a chemistry lab and starting to play with stuff only to end up with severe chemical burns and/or dead...
 
My thought on the Amtrak one is simple - they had no business being there... it'd be like a bunch of teenagers breaking into a chemistry lab and starting to play with stuff only to end up with severe chemical burns and/or dead...
Okay, I'll put it to you this way..

There was no sign of any sort to indicate there were dangerous live wires that were exposed and could endanger life and limb. Just because you are a property owner does not mean that you are exempt from causing direct harm to people who may walk across it or yes, take a seat on it to look at the view. It would be the same as if you had a backyard pool and did not fence your yard and a child drowned after trespassing on your property and fell into the pool.

As a property owner, you have a responsibility to ensure the safety of your property. It is why I don't put spikes on my driveway to stab any Jehovah's Witnesses who trespass on my land to knock on my door. Nor do I leave or allow something I know to be dangerous lying about with the thought that if you're there without permission, then it's your own fault.

Then of course there was Amtrak's behaviour during this case.. As some train fanatics posted on their site about it, the judge's opinion of Amtrak was not positive at all.. they offered little to no defense and instead sought to demean and humiliate the two young men, one of whom is now scarred for life, because Amtrak's lawyers argued they were apparently too stupid to know that they would have had live wires inside the carts and they would have been in danger for sitting on top of the carts to look at the view of the city skyline because they had been on a train once.


The jury could have divided the blame between the young men and the railroad companies, but after the trial in October 2006, it ruled solely in favor of the young men.

The men, Jeffrey Klein and Brett Birdwell, both 17 and both from Stroudsburg at the time, were severely burned by a high voltage wire when they climbed on top of a railroad car parked near New Holland Avenue in August 2002. They were in town visiting Klein's mother.

Klein suffered serious burns over 75 percent of his body and remains permanently scarred and disabled with limited use of his left hand. Birdwell suffered serious burns to 12 percent of his body.

"The evidence of Jeffrey Klein's pain and suffering, loss of enjoyment of life, disfigurement and humiliation was compelling," Stengel wrote in his opinion. "There was strong and persuasive evidence of his horrific injuries and the long and painful treatment he has endured."

Stengel wrote that the jury was instructed to make "a fair assessment" based on the evidence. And, the judge noted that, "it certainly did."

The amounts were determined by their medical bills and by calculating lost future earnings, pain, suffering and loss of life pleasures, and punitive damages.

"One simple truth of this case is that there was more than sufficient evidence presented in support of each claim," Stengel wrote. "Another simple truth of this case is that Amtrak and Norfolk Southern really presented no evidence."

During the trial, Stengel wrote, the railroad companies' attorneys "demeaned" the two young men "for their lack of intelligence, judgment and common sense in choosing to climb to the top of the boxcar."

"Yet, they attributed to them a superior intelligence, a refined sense of deductive logic and an educated sense of thermodynamics," based on Klein's one train ride and occasional car trips along New Holland Avenue, Stengel wrote.

"They argued that Birdwell should have been equally savvy because of his one subway ride at a much younger age," Stengel wrote, adding, "These were silly arguments."

"The verdict was against the great weight of the defendants' bluster," Stengel wrote. "It was not against the great weight of the evidence."

The young men's attorney explained after the verdict that the case wasn't about the teenagers' admitted trespassing, but was about the railroad knowing there was a hidden high voltage hazard on the property.


To be clear, there is no evidence that they broke into a train yard. They apparently saw the train carts on train tracks that were owned by the company and climbed on top of one to look at the view from it. There were no signs anywhere that there was live wire connected to the carts.

I think before you pass judgement on this case, you read the ruling given by the judge in the case. It might make things a bit clearer and you might understand why Amtrak lost their case. For example, Amtrak had argued that the boys should have known better that live electricity could arc causing death or severe injury. As the judge noted, Amtrak's record in that regard provided the best defense, as Amtrak regularly and repeatedly trained their employees on how to deal with the wires in their carts and their employees had regularly and ongoing training about the risk of electrocution but they did not think that a train in a highly urban area, with many schools nearby and open and with clear evidence of pedestrian traffic and even graffiti on the trains would require a sign that there were live wires on the trains? The judge notes, if it is so obvious, then why are they continuously training their employees (with over 8 hours of training required a year for their most experienced staff members) about it but they assume and believe that children and general passerby pedestrians who may cut across the track or even touch the trains would automatically know there were live wires?

The judge held that Amtrak knew children often walked on those tracks and they had even received reports of it from their conductors but they failed to provide any signage that live wire was a danger to anyone who was there. Yet they expect that their trained and experience staff need over 8 hours per year of training to avoid those live wires but they assume that children and pedestrians would just know of the dangers automatically? As the judge noted in his findings, there was a "plethora of evidence" that there was a public safety risk and a risk to children.

The tracks in question were not fenced and no sign about private property (by the looks of it) and no sign that there were live wires that were exposed, it was near a busy intersection and had a few schools in the vicinity with clear evidence that children often walked along or played near those tracks. The tracks in question were also for diesel trains and diesel trains were known to be parked there.. These carts were left there for days, and Amtrak did this with full knowledge of children walking and playing on those unfenced and unmarked tracks, with carts that had ladders that would have made it easy for children to climb. It's akin to the law requiring that you fence your backyard pool so kids cannot fall and drown in them..

The $24million dollar awarded to the two plaintiffs in this case were awarded by a jury, by the way.

Amtrak failed in their duty to ensure public safety. When you read through the judge's ruling, it becomes clear how.
 
Fair enough Bells - when I first read about it I was under the impression that they were trespassing, which appears to be quite untrue in light of what you said
 
Fair enough Bells - when I first read about it I was under the impression that they were trespassing, which appears to be quite untrue in light of what you said

By law they were. However the dangerous areas of the track were not fenced off, there were no signs of any live electricity or anything that could be conceived as being dangerous.

It's the same principle as laws that require you to make sure your pool is fenced. It's not just to protect your own children or guests, but to protect children who may wander onto your property. As property owners, we are required to make sure that if there is a foreseeable chance that someone enters our property (and in Amtrak's case there was clear evidence children were walking on and playing near and on those tracks and trains), then it is our duty to make sure there is nothing deliberately left out or exposed (such as live electrical wires) that could harm anyone who ventures onto our property (imagine the pool fencing laws). If that makes sense?

I'm not talking about someone who breaks into your home and falls down the stairs. But this case is literally like a pool fencing case. If they had a sign up saying there was live wire, then they would not have been found guilty. But they knew the risks, they knew kids were playing on those tracks and near the trains there and they knew the carriages had ladders leading up to the top, the area was not fenced and was in a busy suburban area with schools nearby and clear evidence kids walked on and played there, the carriages in question were connected to a diesel engine, there were no signs to indicate it was live wire.. They could not claim ignorance that they didn't think anyone would have gone there. Kids were using those tracks and they knew it.

So while they were trespassing, as they had entered private property without permission, Amtrak and Co failed in their duty to ensure the safety of the public for anyone who entered or ventured onto their property by not fencing off the dangerous areas, not having any signs up at all.

Some cases are not so cut and dried 'bad greedy lawyers' cases.
 
Hm... I see what you mean. Odd... I thought such signage was... well, I dunno if it was "required" but I've always seen it anywhere I'd seen such setups, so I just assumed that it was the norm... heh, shame on me for assuming eh
 
That's fine and dandy... but once you point a gun at my family and threaten them, i'm sorry, your life is FORFEIT.
Which illustrates one of the many reasons that guns should not be so readily available. Their only purpose in the 21st century is to escalate an altercation (civil or criminal) into a murder.
 
Which illustrates one of the many reasons that guns should not be so readily available. Their only purpose in the 21st century is to escalate an altercation (civil or criminal) into a murder.

Truth be told, my reaction would be the same regardless of if I had a firearm or not... and regardless of if the person in question had a gun, a knife, a broken wine bottle, or a baseball bat. You threaten my family with any kind of actual intent to follow through and you best hope you can kill me quickly. I would gladly take a bullet for my wife... but more than that, I won't let that bullet stop me until I know she is safe, no matter what it takes from me to do so.
 
Truth be told, my reaction would be the same regardless of if I had a firearm or not... and regardless of if the person in question had a gun, a knife, a broken wine bottle, or a baseball bat.
But if you're both armed with baseball bats (much less broken wine bottles), the odds are high that nobody's going to die.

This is why I recommend making martial arts a standard class in children's schools. With a few exceptions, most of them are much more effective at defense than offense. The creep wouldn't get anywhere near you with his knife, bottle or bat, and you wouldn't have to kill him. (And no, I don't have a "belt" of any color.)

The reason guns were invented in the 14th century is that they give the attacker an advantage over the defender. Isn't it about time we stopped living in the 14th century?
 
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