Extraterrestial Life
- Thread starter Roman
- Start date
Audible, you do not understand the meaning of the "image and likeness of God." It does not refer to physical appearance. The likeness simply means that there is in our being, a likeness to His own being. Anything that exists has a likeness to God, for the simple fact of existence is a likeness to the being of God. The Image of God, what the Hindus would call Divinity, is Free Will, Intellect, the ability to Love (Agape, or Caritas). If life on other worlds were Intelligent, and held free will, etc... then they too would hold the Image of God.
Those who, by no fault of their own, do not know Christ, may still be Christian. This is simply because if they seek God (and goodness) and live by their good conscience throughout their lives, then they do follow Christ's teachings, since that is what Christ taught. The message of Christ is universal, meaning that knowledge of Christ is to be spread to wherever there is a listening ear. That includes beyond Earth.
The real question you should be asking is, "what will they reveal about our past." That could be a more damaging question to the majority of religions in the world. Since much of the myth and legend that many religions are rooted in may not be as we understand them.
Those who, by no fault of their own, do not know Christ, may still be Christian. This is simply because if they seek God (and goodness) and live by their good conscience throughout their lives, then they do follow Christ's teachings, since that is what Christ taught. The message of Christ is universal, meaning that knowledge of Christ is to be spread to wherever there is a listening ear. That includes beyond Earth.
The real question you should be asking is, "what will they reveal about our past." That could be a more damaging question to the majority of religions in the world. Since much of the myth and legend that many religions are rooted in may not be as we understand them.
for the universe's sake and any Extraterrestial Life, I hope not.beyond said:
hopfully any alien life, will have much more sense.
however in my opinion as god /gods dont exist, using your deformed logic they would look like nothing.beyond said:
and the simple fact of existence you wrote, is not fact, but purely hyperthetical.. as you have nothing but blind faith, of your gods existence in the first place.
I do not know what spurns your anger, or at least terrible dislike for Christians, all I can do is say that I am sorry for it. You call my logic deformed, yet I can back it fully. You say that I have blind faith. I say otherwise. It is more rational to believe in an infinite being, than otherwise. This is not because of proof, since no proof can be made. It is based on evidence, which is what we must all go on to believe anything to be true.
I have no anger, I am only stating my preferences.
no it more irrational to believe in a god/gods
could you enlighten us all with you evidence.
thank you so much.
btw I sorry if my saying deformed logic, hurt you, it was not my intention just my opinion.
no it more irrational to believe in a god/gods
could you enlighten us all with you evidence.
thank you so much.
btw I sorry if my saying deformed logic, hurt you, it was not my intention just my opinion.
As I said, there can be no proof, only evidence. As with all evidence, it can be questioned and offered different explanations, so I expect that will also be the case here.
1. There seems to be design in the universe. If there is design there is a designer.
2. We are able to recognize goodness in the universe, but against what do we measure that goodness? There seems to be an innate sense of goodness in everyone, and everyone seems to measure goodness. Measurements require a standard, and the measurement of goodness is perfect goodness (comeplete goodness).
3. We observe cause and effect relationships in the universe, it is not unreasonable to believe that there was an intial cause. Such an initial cause would have to be uncaused, always have existed.
4. The majority of people who have lived since the time of our first history believed in some form of God. Such a believe cannot have been held for so long without some forms of assurance. Millions in history have claimed to have experienced God in their lives.
5. There is a long history of philosophical reasoning which indicates the existence of God.
6. There seems to be a driving need within humans to believe in a God. What need is there that cannot be answered?
7. I myself have experienced what I believe to be God in my life. I have also seen much in my life that I understand as guidance, not mere coincidence.
8. From all the philosophy I've taken, and all the theology that I have learned, from the theories that I've developed, and the slow confirmation of them as new discoveries are made, from the mathematics that I've learned, to the psychology that I have been taught, from the science that I know to the poetry of history, I have found unity, not contradiction in the notion of God.
9. Even Einstein saw the need for a God.
10. If there is no God, no life after death, then there is little point in living, at least not that I can see.
There are more that I know, but cannot conjure to my mind right now. Yet, even these seem sufficient evidence for belief in a God.
1. There seems to be design in the universe. If there is design there is a designer.
2. We are able to recognize goodness in the universe, but against what do we measure that goodness? There seems to be an innate sense of goodness in everyone, and everyone seems to measure goodness. Measurements require a standard, and the measurement of goodness is perfect goodness (comeplete goodness).
3. We observe cause and effect relationships in the universe, it is not unreasonable to believe that there was an intial cause. Such an initial cause would have to be uncaused, always have existed.
4. The majority of people who have lived since the time of our first history believed in some form of God. Such a believe cannot have been held for so long without some forms of assurance. Millions in history have claimed to have experienced God in their lives.
5. There is a long history of philosophical reasoning which indicates the existence of God.
6. There seems to be a driving need within humans to believe in a God. What need is there that cannot be answered?
7. I myself have experienced what I believe to be God in my life. I have also seen much in my life that I understand as guidance, not mere coincidence.
8. From all the philosophy I've taken, and all the theology that I have learned, from the theories that I've developed, and the slow confirmation of them as new discoveries are made, from the mathematics that I've learned, to the psychology that I have been taught, from the science that I know to the poetry of history, I have found unity, not contradiction in the notion of God.
9. Even Einstein saw the need for a God.
10. If there is no God, no life after death, then there is little point in living, at least not that I can see.
There are more that I know, but cannot conjure to my mind right now. Yet, even these seem sufficient evidence for belief in a God.
There seems to be design in the universe.
Where?
We are able to recognize goodness in the universe, but against what do we measure that goodness?
Badness?
We observe cause and effect relationships in the universe, it is not unreasonable to believe that there was an intial cause.
We also observe phenomena in the universe that has no cause. So, it is not unreasonable to believe there was NO initial cause.
The majority of people who have lived since the time of our first history believed in some form of God.
Hordes of people believe in all kinds of wacky things - that doesn't make it true.
There is a long history of philosophical reasoning which indicates the existence of God.
Philosophy does not require evidence and can be argued in favor of or against anything.
There seems to be a driving need within humans to believe in a God.
So what? There are many with no such needs.
I myself have experienced what I believe to be God in my life.
Yes, I've heard this over and over, yet have never heard an explanation as to how exactly those so-called experiences can be connected with gods. Something happens that you can't explain so it must be gods?
I have found unity, not contradiction in the notion of God.
Then you have learned nothing.
Even Einstein saw the need for a God.
Complete bullshit.
If there is no God, no life after death, then there is little point in living, at least not that I can see.
The point to life is living. If you can't understand that, then you are little more than a walking corpse waiting for death.
There are more that I know, but cannot conjure to my mind right now. Yet, even these seem sufficient evidence for belief in a God.
You've conjured up quite a bit already from your imagination, nothing of course is any evidence for a belief in a god, quite the opposite actually.
Where?
We are able to recognize goodness in the universe, but against what do we measure that goodness?
Badness?
We observe cause and effect relationships in the universe, it is not unreasonable to believe that there was an intial cause.
We also observe phenomena in the universe that has no cause. So, it is not unreasonable to believe there was NO initial cause.
The majority of people who have lived since the time of our first history believed in some form of God.
Hordes of people believe in all kinds of wacky things - that doesn't make it true.
There is a long history of philosophical reasoning which indicates the existence of God.
Philosophy does not require evidence and can be argued in favor of or against anything.
There seems to be a driving need within humans to believe in a God.
So what? There are many with no such needs.
I myself have experienced what I believe to be God in my life.
Yes, I've heard this over and over, yet have never heard an explanation as to how exactly those so-called experiences can be connected with gods. Something happens that you can't explain so it must be gods?
I have found unity, not contradiction in the notion of God.
Then you have learned nothing.
Even Einstein saw the need for a God.
Complete bullshit.
If there is no God, no life after death, then there is little point in living, at least not that I can see.
The point to life is living. If you can't understand that, then you are little more than a walking corpse waiting for death.
There are more that I know, but cannot conjure to my mind right now. Yet, even these seem sufficient evidence for belief in a God.
You've conjured up quite a bit already from your imagination, nothing of course is any evidence for a belief in a god, quite the opposite actually.
Roman: What would it mean, dogmatically, to Christianity, if traces of life were discovered on other planets?
Would anyone care?
*************
M*W: First, they would deny it and say it is a hoax made-up by atheists and unbelievers.
Second, they would expand their missionary work to include soup kitchens in outer space.
Third, They would conduct obvious public prayer to convert the little green men.
Fourth, they would reinterpret the bible to show where little green men were foretold in the Old Testament to prove Christianity.
Fifth, as far as the dogmas of Christianity go, they are doing quite a good job already of destroying their faith. It's declining worldwide.
Would anyone care?
*************
M*W: First, they would deny it and say it is a hoax made-up by atheists and unbelievers.
Second, they would expand their missionary work to include soup kitchens in outer space.
Third, They would conduct obvious public prayer to convert the little green men.
Fourth, they would reinterpret the bible to show where little green men were foretold in the Old Testament to prove Christianity.
Fifth, as far as the dogmas of Christianity go, they are doing quite a good job already of destroying their faith. It's declining worldwide.
1 are you looking at a different universe to me, it swims in chaos, their is no order
2 have you ever read the bible theres no goodness there, but there is in humanity, humanity first and foremost.
3 basic chicken and the egg situation.
4 the sun and the moon and the earth mother etc.
and your god sent people in to kill the so called false idols and still does
5 this is not reasoning, reasoning is thinking clearly.
6 unfortunely so, but scientist think they have found a chemical in the brain that make us believe like LSD called DMT.
7 any time this happen to me, I was either dreaming or hulucinating, or producing an other abundence of DMT, but common sense shall overcome
8 that good for you then, but others have different notions.
9 and he also see that the was no need.
10 there is every point as you make the most of what you've got, and give happiness , to as many as you can in your live time as life is sacred.
and when the religious relise, there is no after life, they may stop killing each other.
2 have you ever read the bible theres no goodness there, but there is in humanity, humanity first and foremost.
3 basic chicken and the egg situation.
4 the sun and the moon and the earth mother etc.
and your god sent people in to kill the so called false idols and still does
5 this is not reasoning, reasoning is thinking clearly.
6 unfortunely so, but scientist think they have found a chemical in the brain that make us believe like LSD called DMT.
7 any time this happen to me, I was either dreaming or hulucinating, or producing an other abundence of DMT, but common sense shall overcome
8 that good for you then, but others have different notions.
9 and he also see that the was no need.
10 there is every point as you make the most of what you've got, and give happiness , to as many as you can in your live time as life is sacred.
and when the religious relise, there is no after life, they may stop killing each other.
Where does there seem to be design in the universe? As I say, seems. The source of that seeming is in the functioning order of things, the interconnectedness of everything, and the complex make-up of everything. Again, I reiterate, "seems."
Badness is simply the lack of goodness. The negative, rather than the positive. Badness is not measured against a perfect badness, but rather it is measured against goodness, and how much negative quality exists in an action.
Those things for which there seems to be no cause may not simply have no cause. In fact, it is more likely that they do have a cause and that we are unaware of it.
I'm not talking about "hordes" of people. I'm talking about the majority of mankind, that we know of. There is a vast differece. Obviously it doesn't make it true. I already said, these are not proofs. It is simply an indication of probability.
Actually, Philosophy (being the Love of Wisdom, and wisdom being the understanding of experience) is grounded in experience, which is nothing but evidence. Obviously experience can be mislead or may not lead to proper conclusions, ut rest assured, philosophy has its roots in evidence.
So what? If you do not know what I mean by presenting this evidence, then you haven't been paying attention. I again say, these are not proofs, but reasons for belief. Evidences.
My experience is not based on something I cannot explain. It is quite the contrary. I never place God as the source of a phenomenon that has no explanation.
Actualy, it is the one who cannot find unity in respective fields of study that has not learned anything. Yet, even what I have learned, I would admit is still a pittance.
I'm sorry that you are unaware of Einstein's belief in God. On the subject of Einstein and God Friedrich Dürrenmatt once said, "Einstein used to speak of God so often that I almost looked upon him as a disguised theologian." - Friedrich Dürrenmatt, Albert Einstein, Z ürich, 1979, p.12, cited by Max Jammer, op. cit. p. 54: "Einstein pflegte so oft von Gott zu sprechen, dass ich beinahe vermute, er sei ein verkappter Theologe gewesen."
Albert Einstein was born in 1879 of secular Jewish parents who lived in Ulm and then in Munich, where he went to school. There in accordance with state law he had to be instructed in his faith; he was taught Judaism because of his ethnic heritage.
In a speech delivered in Berlin,
Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive for truth, beauty, and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated. The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that is there. - Cited in Brian, op. cit., p. 234
In an interview which Einstein later in life gave to an American magazine, The Saturday Evening Post, in 1929:
"To what extent are you influenced by Christianity?"
"As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene."
"Have you read Emil Ludwig's book on Jesus?"
"Emil Ludwig's Jesus is shallow. Jesus is too colossal for the pen of phrasemongers, however artful. No man can dispose of Christianity with a bon mot."
"You accept the historical Jesus?"
"Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life." - George Sylvester Viereck, "What Life Means to Einstein", The Saturday Evening Post, 26 October 1929
A paragraph from a letter Einstein once sent to an American Episcopal Bishop about the behaviour of the Church during the holocaust.
Being a lover of freedom...I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom, but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks. Only the church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing the truth. I never had any special interest in the church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly. - Reported in The Evening News, Baltimore, April 13, 1979
Here are some other statements Einstein made about this.
By way of the understanding he [the scientist] achieves a far-reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind towards the grandeur of reason incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious, in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualization of our understanding of life.19
My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior Spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. The deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning Power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God. - Cited by Lincoln Barnett, The Universe and Einstein, New York, 1948, Mentor soft cover edition, 1963, p. 109
Yet again:
You will hardly find one among the profounder sort of scientific minds without a peculiar religious feeling of his own . . . .His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection. - Ideas and Opinions, p. 40.
The purpose of life is to continue living? That is circular, what's the point? I live to live, there is no purpose in that, no meaning.
Badness is simply the lack of goodness. The negative, rather than the positive. Badness is not measured against a perfect badness, but rather it is measured against goodness, and how much negative quality exists in an action.
Those things for which there seems to be no cause may not simply have no cause. In fact, it is more likely that they do have a cause and that we are unaware of it.
I'm not talking about "hordes" of people. I'm talking about the majority of mankind, that we know of. There is a vast differece. Obviously it doesn't make it true. I already said, these are not proofs. It is simply an indication of probability.
Actually, Philosophy (being the Love of Wisdom, and wisdom being the understanding of experience) is grounded in experience, which is nothing but evidence. Obviously experience can be mislead or may not lead to proper conclusions, ut rest assured, philosophy has its roots in evidence.
So what? If you do not know what I mean by presenting this evidence, then you haven't been paying attention. I again say, these are not proofs, but reasons for belief. Evidences.
My experience is not based on something I cannot explain. It is quite the contrary. I never place God as the source of a phenomenon that has no explanation.
Actualy, it is the one who cannot find unity in respective fields of study that has not learned anything. Yet, even what I have learned, I would admit is still a pittance.
I'm sorry that you are unaware of Einstein's belief in God. On the subject of Einstein and God Friedrich Dürrenmatt once said, "Einstein used to speak of God so often that I almost looked upon him as a disguised theologian." - Friedrich Dürrenmatt, Albert Einstein, Z ürich, 1979, p.12, cited by Max Jammer, op. cit. p. 54: "Einstein pflegte so oft von Gott zu sprechen, dass ich beinahe vermute, er sei ein verkappter Theologe gewesen."
Albert Einstein was born in 1879 of secular Jewish parents who lived in Ulm and then in Munich, where he went to school. There in accordance with state law he had to be instructed in his faith; he was taught Judaism because of his ethnic heritage.
In a speech delivered in Berlin,
Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive for truth, beauty, and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated. The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that is there. - Cited in Brian, op. cit., p. 234
In an interview which Einstein later in life gave to an American magazine, The Saturday Evening Post, in 1929:
"To what extent are you influenced by Christianity?"
"As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene."
"Have you read Emil Ludwig's book on Jesus?"
"Emil Ludwig's Jesus is shallow. Jesus is too colossal for the pen of phrasemongers, however artful. No man can dispose of Christianity with a bon mot."
"You accept the historical Jesus?"
"Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life." - George Sylvester Viereck, "What Life Means to Einstein", The Saturday Evening Post, 26 October 1929
A paragraph from a letter Einstein once sent to an American Episcopal Bishop about the behaviour of the Church during the holocaust.
Being a lover of freedom...I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom, but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks. Only the church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing the truth. I never had any special interest in the church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly. - Reported in The Evening News, Baltimore, April 13, 1979
Here are some other statements Einstein made about this.
By way of the understanding he [the scientist] achieves a far-reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind towards the grandeur of reason incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious, in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualization of our understanding of life.19
My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior Spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. The deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning Power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God. - Cited by Lincoln Barnett, The Universe and Einstein, New York, 1948, Mentor soft cover edition, 1963, p. 109
Yet again:
You will hardly find one among the profounder sort of scientific minds without a peculiar religious feeling of his own . . . .His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection. - Ideas and Opinions, p. 40.
The purpose of life is to continue living? That is circular, what's the point? I live to live, there is no purpose in that, no meaning.
Well let's see....
Point #1 - Only a human would see design in things because that is how our mind works; we make sense out of the world using logic and reason and by drawing connections and relationships.
#2 - Goodness, happiness, and any positive in general can only be defined through the experience of some lesser state. "Goodness" is most felt immediately after a bad or lower period of experience.
#3 - Cause and effect is a function of the human mind. Cause and effect relationships are imposed and learned by the human mind and are not entities inherent to objects and events in the universe.
#4 - The role of "God" has dramatically decreased with the increase in scientific knowledge. God is often taught as being "mysterious" in our modern age. In contrast, during the superstitious Middle Ages, God was responsible for everything that was not readily understood.
#5 - There is a long history of philosophical reasoning which indicates the absence of a god.
#6 - It is not God that people need. It is answers. Religion can provide answers. But so can logic and reason.
#7 - Consider the fact that you could have been raised under different circumstances in a different culture. You would not have been exposed to those experiences which you connect to your spirituality. In other words, you could not speak of God or angels if grew up Hindu or Buddhist. Also, like in #1 and #3, human beings have no choice but to find reasons and causes, thus there can be in illusion of no coincidences. Furthermore, coincidence is only a human imagination.
#8 - Funny because after all that I found utter contradiction.
#9 - So Einstein was never wrong?
#10 - The point of life is life itself. Humans are burdened with a conscious mind which can produce knowledge but at the same time produces by-products like religion and superstition. Religion and superstition are the products of erroneous connections and relationships drawn by the mind. Logic and reason, as well as science, produces more solid and valid connections and relationships.
This is such a superficial treatment of these points. I mean, its not like it requires much to falsify these statements anyway. Besides, they are based on such faulty logic and reasoning that they don't even warrant any more than what I have already said.
I was once a believer myself. The only way to see things clearly is to start from scratch. That is to say, pretend you don't believe in anything. Then you can see the evidence without trying to fit things into the template you already have in your mind.
An aside...
The biggest benefit of forgetting God/religion is now I see that I can be a good, moral person without some other purpose. I can be truly selfless.
Point #1 - Only a human would see design in things because that is how our mind works; we make sense out of the world using logic and reason and by drawing connections and relationships.
#2 - Goodness, happiness, and any positive in general can only be defined through the experience of some lesser state. "Goodness" is most felt immediately after a bad or lower period of experience.
#3 - Cause and effect is a function of the human mind. Cause and effect relationships are imposed and learned by the human mind and are not entities inherent to objects and events in the universe.
#4 - The role of "God" has dramatically decreased with the increase in scientific knowledge. God is often taught as being "mysterious" in our modern age. In contrast, during the superstitious Middle Ages, God was responsible for everything that was not readily understood.
#5 - There is a long history of philosophical reasoning which indicates the absence of a god.
#6 - It is not God that people need. It is answers. Religion can provide answers. But so can logic and reason.
#7 - Consider the fact that you could have been raised under different circumstances in a different culture. You would not have been exposed to those experiences which you connect to your spirituality. In other words, you could not speak of God or angels if grew up Hindu or Buddhist. Also, like in #1 and #3, human beings have no choice but to find reasons and causes, thus there can be in illusion of no coincidences. Furthermore, coincidence is only a human imagination.
#8 - Funny because after all that I found utter contradiction.
#9 - So Einstein was never wrong?
#10 - The point of life is life itself. Humans are burdened with a conscious mind which can produce knowledge but at the same time produces by-products like religion and superstition. Religion and superstition are the products of erroneous connections and relationships drawn by the mind. Logic and reason, as well as science, produces more solid and valid connections and relationships.
This is such a superficial treatment of these points. I mean, its not like it requires much to falsify these statements anyway. Besides, they are based on such faulty logic and reasoning that they don't even warrant any more than what I have already said.
I was once a believer myself. The only way to see things clearly is to start from scratch. That is to say, pretend you don't believe in anything. Then you can see the evidence without trying to fit things into the template you already have in your mind.
An aside...
The biggest benefit of forgetting God/religion is now I see that I can be a good, moral person without some other purpose. I can be truly selfless.
How can you say there is no order? Just look at the human brain and you see amazing order. What about all the laws of nature, physics? Does that not speak of order? Sure there is much that is out of order, but there is explanation for that as well.
I have as yet, said nothing of the Bible. Even in humanity there is goodness, and we measure goodness.
Chicken and Egg situation? The answer to that is that there was something prior to the chicken and egg that was responsible for both.
You answer to number 5 is not an argument but an accusation.
The existence of DMT does not reduce the force of the evidence I presented. In fact, it strengthens it. If there is within every human a mechanism that allows us to believe, then I see purpose there.
My experience of God was neither while I was unconsious, or in any way affected by a mental ill or hallucinagenic. My experience of God was neither that of vision, or of organic hearing.
You are right in saying it is good for me. Yes this is not an evidence for everyone, but rather it simply strengthens my own conviction.
My response to Albert is already given.
What is the point of being happy, or giving happiness? What will it do for me in the end? What victory do I gain from it? What do I gain in life, that I would not if I did not live? Once I die, then whatever gain there was, is lost. Once those whom I effected die, that gain is also lost. Even if the chain of effect lasts until the end of time, then at that time, it is all lost. If time is neverending, then whatever gain I make, will eventually be made if I did not exist. So I ask again, what is the point of my life?
I have as yet, said nothing of the Bible. Even in humanity there is goodness, and we measure goodness.
Chicken and Egg situation? The answer to that is that there was something prior to the chicken and egg that was responsible for both.
You answer to number 5 is not an argument but an accusation.
The existence of DMT does not reduce the force of the evidence I presented. In fact, it strengthens it. If there is within every human a mechanism that allows us to believe, then I see purpose there.
My experience of God was neither while I was unconsious, or in any way affected by a mental ill or hallucinagenic. My experience of God was neither that of vision, or of organic hearing.
You are right in saying it is good for me. Yes this is not an evidence for everyone, but rather it simply strengthens my own conviction.
My response to Albert is already given.
What is the point of being happy, or giving happiness? What will it do for me in the end? What victory do I gain from it? What do I gain in life, that I would not if I did not live? Once I die, then whatever gain there was, is lost. Once those whom I effected die, that gain is also lost. Even if the chain of effect lasts until the end of time, then at that time, it is all lost. If time is neverending, then whatever gain I make, will eventually be made if I did not exist. So I ask again, what is the point of my life?
Point#1 - Only an intellectual mind would see design in things (not simply a human). This is true, I agree. Yet, this does not mean that there is no design, or structure, or overriding order in the universe. It simply means that we can recognize it.
Point#2 - Goodness is not simply something that is defined by experience. I can show something to be of good quality and nature without ever having experienced it. My explanation may be based upon experience, yes. However, it is thus true that while goodnesses may be felt most potently after lower or bad experience, it is true that goodness, as a quality can be described without those lower or bad experiences.
Point#3 - It is true that cause and effect are not entities that exist in the universe, just as numbers are not entities that exist in the universe. They are concepts that describe how certain aspects of the universe work. Physics can show that for every action there is a reaction. Yes cause and effect are not actual entities, "cause and effect" is simply a way of stating that particular law of the universe, that with action, there is reaction.
Point#4 - Agreed. However, the belief in God has not decreased. (perhaps it has per capita, I am uncertain)
Point#5 - Certainly, however I find that the philosophy for God's existence is older, stronger, deeper, and held by the majority of the world's greatest historical minds.
Point#6 - I agree that logic, science, etc... can give answers. That is as sure as night and day. I also find that people's need for answers is also so certain. However, this does not deny the notion that people need God.
Point#7 - It is true that were I raised in a different environment I may have different views about the world. I do not deny that. However, what evidence I have been presented, I am using. I cannot expect different of anyone else. It is the only rational thing to do.
Point#8 - I'm sorry that you find contradiction. Perhaps your knowledge of religious teachings is not as extensive as mine. Or perhaps my knowledge of science is not as extensive as yours. Either way, I have only found "apparent" contradiction, but I have not found REAL contradiction.
Point#9 - Yes he can be wrong. I do not deny that. As I have said many times, these are only evidences, not proofs. Einstein, being perhaps the most intelligent man to live (we may never know), is likely to be a good source for truth. That is all I meant to indic
Point#10 - I am sorry that you count religion and superstition in the same category. Religion is not something that was just brought out of thin air. It does have its grounding in experience, just as every discipline. The main purpose of honest religions is simply to make like better. To bring about happiness, and remove unhappiness. It is by ignorance, and misunderstanding that the evils that are rampant in the world exist. It is by misunderstanding of the religious purpose that many wars are fought, both among the religious, and between the religious and non-religious. There seems to be a heavy concentration on the bad that has come out of the so-called religious, and hardly any concentration on the good that has come of it. Furthermore, there also seems to be a lack of concentration on the other places that wickedness and war arise, such as politics, economics, pursuit of wealth and power, etc...
If you want a true view of what religion is about, look at the life of someone like Mother Theresa, that is who you should judge religion by. Not the false who claim goodness and perform evils.
Point#2 - Goodness is not simply something that is defined by experience. I can show something to be of good quality and nature without ever having experienced it. My explanation may be based upon experience, yes. However, it is thus true that while goodnesses may be felt most potently after lower or bad experience, it is true that goodness, as a quality can be described without those lower or bad experiences.
Point#3 - It is true that cause and effect are not entities that exist in the universe, just as numbers are not entities that exist in the universe. They are concepts that describe how certain aspects of the universe work. Physics can show that for every action there is a reaction. Yes cause and effect are not actual entities, "cause and effect" is simply a way of stating that particular law of the universe, that with action, there is reaction.
Point#4 - Agreed. However, the belief in God has not decreased. (perhaps it has per capita, I am uncertain)
Point#5 - Certainly, however I find that the philosophy for God's existence is older, stronger, deeper, and held by the majority of the world's greatest historical minds.
Point#6 - I agree that logic, science, etc... can give answers. That is as sure as night and day. I also find that people's need for answers is also so certain. However, this does not deny the notion that people need God.
Point#7 - It is true that were I raised in a different environment I may have different views about the world. I do not deny that. However, what evidence I have been presented, I am using. I cannot expect different of anyone else. It is the only rational thing to do.
Point#8 - I'm sorry that you find contradiction. Perhaps your knowledge of religious teachings is not as extensive as mine. Or perhaps my knowledge of science is not as extensive as yours. Either way, I have only found "apparent" contradiction, but I have not found REAL contradiction.
Point#9 - Yes he can be wrong. I do not deny that. As I have said many times, these are only evidences, not proofs. Einstein, being perhaps the most intelligent man to live (we may never know), is likely to be a good source for truth. That is all I meant to indic
Point#10 - I am sorry that you count religion and superstition in the same category. Religion is not something that was just brought out of thin air. It does have its grounding in experience, just as every discipline. The main purpose of honest religions is simply to make like better. To bring about happiness, and remove unhappiness. It is by ignorance, and misunderstanding that the evils that are rampant in the world exist. It is by misunderstanding of the religious purpose that many wars are fought, both among the religious, and between the religious and non-religious. There seems to be a heavy concentration on the bad that has come out of the so-called religious, and hardly any concentration on the good that has come of it. Furthermore, there also seems to be a lack of concentration on the other places that wickedness and war arise, such as politics, economics, pursuit of wealth and power, etc...
If you want a true view of what religion is about, look at the life of someone like Mother Theresa, that is who you should judge religion by. Not the false who claim goodness and perform evils.
The source of that seeming is in the functioning order of things, the interconnectedness of everything, and the complex make-up of everything. Again, I reiterate, "seems."
Observation would suggest complete chaos dominates the universe.
Badness is simply the lack of goodness.
No, a lack of goodness is nothing at all, no actions take place.
In fact, it is more likely that they do have a cause and that we are unaware of it.
Not according to observations.
It is simply an indication of probability.
Probabilities are based on natural phenomenae, not what has been conjured from the imagination.
rest assured, philosophy has its roots in evidence.
Well, if YOU say so, it must be true. But I would have to ask how religion and the afterlife have roots in evidence?
reasons for belief. Evidences.
Correction; assertions.
My experience is not based on something I cannot explain. It is quite the contrary.
But can you explain it and connect it with gods?
I'm sorry that you are unaware of Einstein's belief in God.
Einstein did not believe in gods and emphatically stated so.
The purpose of life is to continue living? That is circular, what's the point? I live to live, there is no purpose in that, no meaning.
What makes you think our lives are supposed to have meaning and purpose other than to stay alive? If all you're interested in is an afterlife, you have no reason to live.
Observation would suggest complete chaos dominates the universe.
Badness is simply the lack of goodness.
No, a lack of goodness is nothing at all, no actions take place.
In fact, it is more likely that they do have a cause and that we are unaware of it.
Not according to observations.
It is simply an indication of probability.
Probabilities are based on natural phenomenae, not what has been conjured from the imagination.
rest assured, philosophy has its roots in evidence.
Well, if YOU say so, it must be true. But I would have to ask how religion and the afterlife have roots in evidence?
reasons for belief. Evidences.
Correction; assertions.
My experience is not based on something I cannot explain. It is quite the contrary.
But can you explain it and connect it with gods?
I'm sorry that you are unaware of Einstein's belief in God.
Einstein did not believe in gods and emphatically stated so.
The purpose of life is to continue living? That is circular, what's the point? I live to live, there is no purpose in that, no meaning.
What makes you think our lives are supposed to have meaning and purpose other than to stay alive? If all you're interested in is an afterlife, you have no reason to live.
Complete chaos would be nothing, since chaos is simply the lack of order. Wherever there exists a thing, there exists a degree of order. So, the universe cannot be completely dominated by chaos.
Bingo! A total lack of goodness IS nothing at all. Therefore, pure evil cannot exist. An action that is bad is an action that contains a degree of lacking of the goodness that would make that action perfect according to its own nature.
As I said, our observations may indicate that such phenomena do not have cause. However, our overall observations (that is, the observations of everything else) indicate that the laws of action and reaction, cause and effect, hold for all things in the universe, or as far as we can tell, most things. Since the law of cause and effect is so strong, our observations tell us that the likelyhood of the situation is that the phenomena that seem to have no cause really do have a cause, but that we are so far unaware of it.
I agree that probabilities are not based upon what is conjured from the imagination. No doubt of that in my mind.
Nice quip, but you seem to be confusing philosophy and religion. Religions may hold certain philosophies, but philosophy is not something the belongs necessarily to religion. Most philosophers have claimed, in fact, that philosophy, like science, should not intermingle with religion. Philosophy (Greek meaning Love of Wisdom, as I've said. Philos - Love, Sophia - Wisdom) was originally simply the basic views of living that one held for himself.
Evidence is not solely physical, or sensibly observable phenomena.
I can explain it. The connection with God comes out of a religious belief, and a philosophical premise that I hold to be true, due to its great sense.
No, Einstein did not believe in "gods." That is certain. He believed in only one, and He even went so far as to describe what He felt it was.
Actually, I have reason to live, if there is an afterlife, based upon the very nature of that afterlife. The state of the afterlife is entirely dependant upon how this life is lived, and the state of the soul at death.
Bingo! A total lack of goodness IS nothing at all. Therefore, pure evil cannot exist. An action that is bad is an action that contains a degree of lacking of the goodness that would make that action perfect according to its own nature.
As I said, our observations may indicate that such phenomena do not have cause. However, our overall observations (that is, the observations of everything else) indicate that the laws of action and reaction, cause and effect, hold for all things in the universe, or as far as we can tell, most things. Since the law of cause and effect is so strong, our observations tell us that the likelyhood of the situation is that the phenomena that seem to have no cause really do have a cause, but that we are so far unaware of it.
I agree that probabilities are not based upon what is conjured from the imagination. No doubt of that in my mind.
Nice quip, but you seem to be confusing philosophy and religion. Religions may hold certain philosophies, but philosophy is not something the belongs necessarily to religion. Most philosophers have claimed, in fact, that philosophy, like science, should not intermingle with religion. Philosophy (Greek meaning Love of Wisdom, as I've said. Philos - Love, Sophia - Wisdom) was originally simply the basic views of living that one held for himself.
Evidence is not solely physical, or sensibly observable phenomena.
I can explain it. The connection with God comes out of a religious belief, and a philosophical premise that I hold to be true, due to its great sense.
No, Einstein did not believe in "gods." That is certain. He believed in only one, and He even went so far as to describe what He felt it was.
Actually, I have reason to live, if there is an afterlife, based upon the very nature of that afterlife. The state of the afterlife is entirely dependant upon how this life is lived, and the state of the soul at death.
Oh!! well another fundie, graces us with his knowledge. NOT. 
Yes lets look at the human brain and it's lack of order. If there were order in the human brain, there wouldn't be any problem recongnising illusions, if there were order of the human brain, we would use, more of it, instead of just 20%, it's is said Einstein must of used at least 25% or a tiny bit more.
If there were order of the human brain, old folkes would have never heard of Altheismer. Brain tumors would be in fary tale stories, memory would be excellent at any age. Man I could go on, and on. But what's the use?.
If there's a designer, then another designer designed him/her/it. Why stop, at just god, and not another superior god? Surely god must of had a mother and father right?. God was just some messy kid with his biological experiment in a vial next to the table and he droped it, BOOOOOOM!!!! there was an amazing explosion and it created a universe. Wow!!.
Godless.
Yes lets look at the human brain and it's lack of order. If there were order in the human brain, there wouldn't be any problem recongnising illusions, if there were order of the human brain, we would use, more of it, instead of just 20%, it's is said Einstein must of used at least 25% or a tiny bit more.
If there were order of the human brain, old folkes would have never heard of Altheismer. Brain tumors would be in fary tale stories, memory would be excellent at any age. Man I could go on, and on. But what's the use?.
If there's a designer, then another designer designed him/her/it. Why stop, at just god, and not another superior god? Surely god must of had a mother and father right?. God was just some messy kid with his biological experiment in a vial next to the table and he droped it, BOOOOOOM!!!! there was an amazing explosion and it created a universe. Wow!!.
Godless.
There can be order, without perfect order. Just because all of the things you claim about the brain occur, does not mean it lacks order, incredible order at that. As for the use of our brain, realize that the 20% talked about is the amount we use in thought processing. We actually use all of our brain. The other 80% is simply devoted to different areas of function. Such as the Visual Cortex. Einstein's thought center of the brain was 25%, rather than the normal 20% that is devoted to it. However, Einsteins mathematics lobe was about 1cm thicker than the average human, and where there is usually a division in either hemisphere, Einstein's brain had no division.
As for your statement on the designer, if God is infinite, which would have to be the case for Him to be all the other things we believe of Him (omniscience, omnipotence, omnibelevolence, etc...). As such, there could be no creator of God, for an infinite being would be Eternal, and have no beginning.
As for you comment about me being a fundamentalist. Rather, I accept scientific truths as they come. I accept philosophical truths as they come. I accept religious truths as they come. Fundamentalists believe they are right and are uncompromising. They are unwilling to change. I, however, have changed my views on many things over the past number of years, and I imagine that my view on things will be further changed over the coming years of my life. At one time I believed the theory of evolution to be wrong absolutely. That is now not the case.
If a fundamentalist has spoken it would be you, since you are so quick to categorize me as something that you detest, and then, consequently, ignore anything that I might say as supersticious and false. You are the uncompromising, the one who holds his truths to be fundamentally true, and the religious to be fundamentally false. You should be less eager to accuse, and more willing to consider. It is the accusing finger that inflames anger and war, an accusing finger that you weild so unwittingly.
In the future, it would be wise to be less spiteful, and more willing to hear. I have sat and I have listened to an incredible amount of arguments against what I believe. I have taken the time to understand those arguments, and my own beliefs. As a result my beliefs have changed, and I have come to a better understanding of them, as well as being able to easily point out certain falsities in such arguments. If you believe honestly what you do, then be sure about yourself, and understand that everyone works with the evidence they are given. If you are so right, then be patient, and explain to me my misunderstanding. If I find fault with your logic, then I will explain it, and I expect you to do the same. Don't spit insults at me, for I would not do that to you. Just because I am Christian, does not mean I am like the ones that you are familiar with. I see that you are Athiest, and I would not hold anything against you. You are simply working within the construct that you have been given. Furthermore, just because you are Athiest, does not mean you will go to Hell. If you are honest about your belief, and truly pursue goodness in your life, then I look foreward to experiencing the infinite with you.
As for your statement on the designer, if God is infinite, which would have to be the case for Him to be all the other things we believe of Him (omniscience, omnipotence, omnibelevolence, etc...). As such, there could be no creator of God, for an infinite being would be Eternal, and have no beginning.
As for you comment about me being a fundamentalist. Rather, I accept scientific truths as they come. I accept philosophical truths as they come. I accept religious truths as they come. Fundamentalists believe they are right and are uncompromising. They are unwilling to change. I, however, have changed my views on many things over the past number of years, and I imagine that my view on things will be further changed over the coming years of my life. At one time I believed the theory of evolution to be wrong absolutely. That is now not the case.
If a fundamentalist has spoken it would be you, since you are so quick to categorize me as something that you detest, and then, consequently, ignore anything that I might say as supersticious and false. You are the uncompromising, the one who holds his truths to be fundamentally true, and the religious to be fundamentally false. You should be less eager to accuse, and more willing to consider. It is the accusing finger that inflames anger and war, an accusing finger that you weild so unwittingly.
In the future, it would be wise to be less spiteful, and more willing to hear. I have sat and I have listened to an incredible amount of arguments against what I believe. I have taken the time to understand those arguments, and my own beliefs. As a result my beliefs have changed, and I have come to a better understanding of them, as well as being able to easily point out certain falsities in such arguments. If you believe honestly what you do, then be sure about yourself, and understand that everyone works with the evidence they are given. If you are so right, then be patient, and explain to me my misunderstanding. If I find fault with your logic, then I will explain it, and I expect you to do the same. Don't spit insults at me, for I would not do that to you. Just because I am Christian, does not mean I am like the ones that you are familiar with. I see that you are Athiest, and I would not hold anything against you. You are simply working within the construct that you have been given. Furthermore, just because you are Athiest, does not mean you will go to Hell. If you are honest about your belief, and truly pursue goodness in your life, then I look foreward to experiencing the infinite with you.
beyondallpossiblehope:
1 Be sure you know how to explain the nasty design in the universe as well.
2 not so sure about that,the universe and even this planet is inhospitable,its a continous struggle for survival, for example tiny little mosquitos carrying
mallaria kill
more people every year than all the wars, diseases/aids,viruses keep continously evolving adapting to our latest medicines, try fighting that with prayer. and some people are so friging evil they are danger to everyone.
3 3000 years ago, people probably thought meteor showers were the sky falling or the wrath of God. Now we know this isn't so, and that it is just stray masses of ice, rock, and ore entering the atmosphere. Back then, they said "Goddidit" to meteor showers, now you say "Goddidit" to the "first cause", we don't know the scientific "first cause" but we will [hopefully] eventually find out. Don't be so quick to jump to the "Goddidit" conclusion.
4 Again, "Goddidit" is a pretty quick, easy way to explain the things we cannot figure out. Not just that, but it's pretty easy to brainwash a young child into believing anything. Convert a few people, kill the rest who don't
convert. The people who have been converted's children are told "Goddidit" and "God exists, don't let anyone tell you anything else", their children are told they tell, their children, etc, etc. It builds up quickly.
5 and vice versa
www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/index.html
maybe you refuse to see the contradictions.
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com
6 I don't know. Humans are just intelligent animals, and no other animals have a need of God(s). Why humans are succeptable to such ignorance and stupidity is beyond me.
7 Hey me too, such as the number 666 appearing in numbers, figuring out "racecar" is spelt the same way forwards as backwards, things that couldn't have been "just coincidences". But for every odd coincidence, there are a 100 more that are just coincidences. Also, it's funny how we humans only seem to remember the "unexplainable" coincidences and not the normal stuff.
8 Of course, statistically, the Bible had to be right about some things.
9 Einstein was, in many ways, more anti-theistic than outright atheists. He redefined God to mean the aggregate of all the laws of physics, thereby making it possible for there to exist a God-believing atheist. And he flatly
denied all existence of a personal God and life after death.
10 There's around 50,000,000 atheists in the U.S. that would debate that. Sad that a person can't find a reason to live without a sky daddy or without the help of the supernatural.
un( friging )believable.
1 Be sure you know how to explain the nasty design in the universe as well.
2 not so sure about that,the universe and even this planet is inhospitable,its a continous struggle for survival, for example tiny little mosquitos carrying
mallaria kill
more people every year than all the wars, diseases/aids,viruses keep continously evolving adapting to our latest medicines, try fighting that with prayer. and some people are so friging evil they are danger to everyone.
3 3000 years ago, people probably thought meteor showers were the sky falling or the wrath of God. Now we know this isn't so, and that it is just stray masses of ice, rock, and ore entering the atmosphere. Back then, they said "Goddidit" to meteor showers, now you say "Goddidit" to the "first cause", we don't know the scientific "first cause" but we will [hopefully] eventually find out. Don't be so quick to jump to the "Goddidit" conclusion.
4 Again, "Goddidit" is a pretty quick, easy way to explain the things we cannot figure out. Not just that, but it's pretty easy to brainwash a young child into believing anything. Convert a few people, kill the rest who don't
convert. The people who have been converted's children are told "Goddidit" and "God exists, don't let anyone tell you anything else", their children are told they tell, their children, etc, etc. It builds up quickly.
5 and vice versa
www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/index.html
maybe you refuse to see the contradictions.
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com
6 I don't know. Humans are just intelligent animals, and no other animals have a need of God(s). Why humans are succeptable to such ignorance and stupidity is beyond me.
7 Hey me too, such as the number 666 appearing in numbers, figuring out "racecar" is spelt the same way forwards as backwards, things that couldn't have been "just coincidences". But for every odd coincidence, there are a 100 more that are just coincidences. Also, it's funny how we humans only seem to remember the "unexplainable" coincidences and not the normal stuff.
8 Of course, statistically, the Bible had to be right about some things.
9 Einstein was, in many ways, more anti-theistic than outright atheists. He redefined God to mean the aggregate of all the laws of physics, thereby making it possible for there to exist a God-believing atheist. And he flatly
denied all existence of a personal God and life after death.
10 There's around 50,000,000 atheists in the U.S. that would debate that. Sad that a person can't find a reason to live without a sky daddy or without the help of the supernatural.
un( friging )believable.
an>roid.v2
Registered Senior Member
Roman said:
Well, it seems that Christians are already taking measures to counteract that possibility. I've been encountering flabbergasting theories in ufology circles already depicting aliens, and finger-pointing them and condemning them as "demons". Being rather premature with their damnations, aren't they? Christians, in this instance, are certainly proving themselves as being non-jurisprudent. Aren't they?