Explain something to me

T

TheHeretic

Registered Senior Member
How can all of you christians defend your beliefs so vhemently when you dont even fully understand the theory of evolution or the big bang theory? How many of you actually read Darwin's Orgin of Species or read about any of these theories for hours on end. Going to the library every weekend learning more and more? If your going to prove that god exists by dissproving the big bang theory explain to me why the most abundant element in the universe is hydrogen or give me a reason why the CMB discovered is not reminant heat from the big bang.
 
TheHeretic said:
How can all of you christians defend your beliefs so vhemently when you dont even fully understand the theory of evolution or the big bang theory? How many of you actually read Darwin's Orgin of Species or read about any of these theories for hours on end. Going to the library every weekend learning more and more? If your going to prove that god exists by dissproving the big bang theory explain to me why the most abundant element in the universe is hydrogen or give me a reason why the CMB discovered is not reminant heat from the big bang.
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Excuse me, but when was the last time anybody but Atheists insisted that the Big Bang or Evolution was inconsistent with the Existence of a Providential God. It seems to be that you're picking only arguments that you can win, but proving the Big Bang or that animals that once had short teeth now have long teeth.. to say that disproves God... how does that follow?
 
I realize that there are christians that do believe in these theories. Ive even expained to a few of my friends that the big bang doesnt refute god. My point is not that god doesnt exist because these theories are right. My point is that people defend there beliefs by completley denying these theories.
 
Many Christians tend to support the Big Bang theory because they think it depicts a creation event.

Another set of Christians tend to deny evolution because it shows the falacy of their idea that humans were specially designed.

Other Christians accept that we don't know how the BB began or what came before, and others have no problem with evolution and I think even the Vatican recognizes the rather obvious fact of evolution.

So really I don't think it is meaningful to clump all Christians together as if they all hold the same perceptions about their religion.
 
CRIS,

I think I have seen you write that the universe is infinite, in response to the supposedly low probabilities a believer in intelligent design put forth.
Isn't the theory of the big bang inconsistent with the idea that the universe is infinite? Obviously, if the big bang happened X number of years ago, the matter in the universe can only have traveled a finite distance in the time since.
I guess one could say that the big bang only dealt with one portion of the infinite universe as opposed to the whole thing.

Do you think the assumption I am making, i.e., that the big bang is incompatible with an infinite universe, is correct?

p.s. your statement -
"So really I don't think it is meaningful to clump all Christians together as if they all hold the same perceptions about their religion."
shows a wisdom many people on these forums lack...
 
Cole,

……..Do you think the assumption I am making, i.e., that the big bang is incompatible with an infinite universe, is correct?
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I think that is indeed the somewhat shortsighted perspective that many hold. But it really doesn’t take much imagination to envisage alternatives. I liken this to our history where at each major discovery we tend to declare ourselves at the center; e.g. the earth, then the sun, etc. Once we break away from that arrogance then many ideas can be explored.

The one I like the most is the bubble universe where our BB is simply a single bubble among an infinite sea of BBs. Doesn’t explain how they start though.

The steady state theory I think has been pretty much dispelled now but the infinite cycle has been resurrected again recently, e.g. bang, expand, contract, crunch, bang, etc. From what I understand the theory of dark matter and energy appears to make this a real consideration once again.

As for an infinite universe: I suspect this has to exist somehow otherwise nothing could have ever begun. The proposal that there is an infinite creator simply shifts the burden from a credible infinite natural phenomenon to a far less credible supernatural (has no precedent) infinite phenomenon.

Does that help?
Cris
 
Even Science cannot tell what happened before the Big Bang. So for us theists to say that God caused it to happen is just as good and plausible as any scientist's theories. I have a problem with scientists denying God anyway because in science nothing should be ruled out until there is solid proof. God has not been disproven so it is intellectually dishonest for scientists to state otherwise.

Concerning an infinite universe I think there are infinities inside infinities just like in normal mathematics. How many numbers are between 1 and 2? In reality there are infinite amounts of numbers that can fit between them. Our universe is just part of an infinite number of universes that also goes into infinity. Our universe is but a bubble inside an infinate number of other bubbles.
 
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Brutus,

So for us theists to say that God caused it to happen is just as good and plausible as any scientist's theories.
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Well no not really. Scientists base their hypotheses on natural phenomenon, which is all we know. The theist speculations require supernatural phenomena of which there is no precedent. The degrees of plausibility are wildly different.

I have a problem with scientists denying God anyway because in science nothing should be ruled out until there is solid proof.
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We should make a distinction between the personal views of people who are scientists and the activities that comprise science. At present science has no position on the existence of gods since science is entirely based on evidence, and for the moment the supernatural is only speculation.

God has not been disproven so it is intellectually dishonest for scientists to state otherwise.
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You make it sound that most scientists are making claims of proof for the non-existence of gods. That seems like a significant distortion. Do you have any examples of such statistics? I suspect you are repeating a perception that religions offer as part of their propaganda. In reality most scientists appear largely disinterested in religious issues.
 
Cris said:
The one I like the most is the bubble universe where our BB is simply a single bubble among an infinite sea of BBs. Doesn’t explain how they start though.
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funny, that the first response I had to my own assumption was the idea that the "universe" is only part of a much larger, or infinite, universe. The same response you like the most. I'll admit that I have a hard time imagining an infinite universe, but, when I think about it, I suppose the chance I should put on the idea is probably 50/50, based on the amount of knowledge we have.

Cris said:
The steady state theory I think has been pretty much dispelled now but the infinite cycle has been resurrected again recently, e.g. bang, expand, contract, crunch, bang, etc. From what I understand the theory of dark matter and energy appears to make this a real consideration once again.
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I think that having an infinite multiplicity of big bangs is an interesting idea, but how does the question, "which number is this one?", make any sense? Doesn't the line of infinity go as far "back" as it goes forward? Otherwise, we are making the assumption that this isn't one of the early incarnations of the universe, where the probabilities of any particular thing happening are only increased by a small amount. The idea of something with no beginning is also a bit hard for me to grasp.

Cris said:
As for an infinite universe: I suspect this has to exist somehow otherwise nothing could have ever begun.
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What do you mean by this?
I am trying to get a grasp on the concept of infinity as more than a word that means, "endless".
 
Cole,

I think that having an infinite multiplicity of big bangs is an interesting idea, but how does the question, "which number is this one?", make any sense?
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In the context of my proposition it doesn’t – infinity isn’t a numerical quantity.

Doesn't the line of infinity go as far "back" as it goes forward?
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Not necessarily but then I am not proposing a starting point. Infinity is simply something without a boundary condition.

What do you mean by this?
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Something with an infinite nature must exist, whether it be natural or supernatural or whatever. If there had ever been a point where nothing existed then there would not have been anything to cause a beginning. Hence there can never have been a beginning.
 
You have to accept the Truth: Before the Big Bang there was another "universe". It has been repeating like this forever, exploding and imploding. The universe is "created" in the human MIND. It exists only because we're conscious of the physical reality. Scientists are never gonna get it because they can't believe in themselves, they only believe in the Universe! The universe is "metaphysical".
 
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Why does everybody make generalisations?
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My kinda humour :) I like it.

You have to accept the Truth: Before the Big Bang there was another "universe". It has been repeating like this forever, exploding and imploding.
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It's an assumption, a hypothesis, a theory. Pick whichever of the 3 you feel more comfortable with, but "truth" does not belong anywhere in there.

The universe is "created" in the human MIND.
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Well, while your level of humour is not quite on par with Ophiolite's, it was still a noble effort.

Scientists are never gonna get it because they can't believe in themselves, they only believe in the Universe! The universe is "metaphysical".
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Meaningless tripe.
 
Yorda you say scientist are never going to get it. The human species has only existed for about 10000 years we got billions of years a head of us if we play it right. Im pretty sure we will be able find out whats going on out there.
 
TheHeretic said:
Yorda you say scientist are never going to get it. The human species has only existed for about 10000 years we got billions of years a head of us if we play it right. Im pretty sure we will be able find out whats going on out there.
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Of course, I was just "kidding" :)

_______________________

SnakeLord! said:
It's an assumption, a hypothesis, a theory. Pick whichever of the 3 you feel more comfortable with, but "truth" does not belong anywhere in there.
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But I really KNOW it. I don't know how I know it but I know it.

Well, while your level of humour is not quite on par with Ophiolite's, it was still a noble effort.
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:)

Meaningless tripe.
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About 15 % rubbish, 85 % truth.
 
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But I really KNOW it. I don't know how I know it but I know it.
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There was a 15 year old kid that I knew once. He "KNEW" he was immortal. The dude knew no matter what he did, he would never die. It wouldn't matter what you said to try and get him to "see sense", and I can see the same applies to you.

In the end he got splatted by a fast moving vehicle. So much for "KNOWING".

About 15 % rubbish, 85 % truth.
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Shift the 85% to the left a bit.
 
SnakeLord said:
There was a 15 year old kid that I knew once. He "KNEW" he was immortal. The dude knew no matter what he did, he would never die. It wouldn't matter what you said to try and get him to "see sense", and I can see the same applies to you.

In the end he got splatted by a fast moving vehicle. So much for "KNOWING".
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I know I'm immortal too, but my body can still die. I'm sure that kid knew that he was immortal, but he didn't know that his body can still die. I'm probably him reborn, now I learned a lesson, so now I understand that even though I am immortal, the body can still die.

Shift the 85% to the left a bit.

Yep
 
While the Big Bang is the most commonly known creation theory. By the way unless you say that it is an everlasting chain of universes expanding then collapsing then expanding again, where did the material come form? If you say that, then where did the original material come from? I am sure that there are more theories. Has Anyone heard of the strings theory? Let's try our own little theory in here.

Genesis 1:1

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Assumption: God is the reason that the universe is here.

Reasoning: Given

Genesis 1:2

The earth was without form, and void: and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Assumption: The earth wasn't here yet, it was dark. If the the waters are considered to be the universe, then if God is hovering over the waters, he is not part of the universe. Waters means a fluid. A fluid is commonly know as a liquid or a gas.

Reasoning: There was recent evidence that stated that the early universe would move in a more fluid nature. This was discovered when an atom smasher was used on gold to heat it to trillions of degrees. the result was that quarks, etc... were emitted from it in a fluid manner. This is different than what i understand as the current big bang theory.

I could outline all of Genesis 1 like this. If you want me to tell me, but i think you get the picture.

I once heard that Science and Religion are not at conflict, just the basis of the Science.
 
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